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ULTRA 16 Conversion X Camera & Lenses choice - HELP!


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#1 flavio filho

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Posted 20 November 2010 - 09:22 AM

Hi all.

Couldn't find another Category to insert this topic. I know ultra 16 have been discussed in some topics already, but I have some doubts I'd like to clarify specifically to my case, but also might help others about the awesomeness of Ultra 16 Conversion.

I soon will have a nice arsenal, composed by:
- 1 Bolex EL Body + Angeniux 12-120 Zoom Lens
- 1 Bolex Rex 5 Body
- 2 Arriflex 16 S Bodies
- Plus a couple of lenses I'll choose to buy, probably 10mm, 16mm, 25mm and 50mm


Then I'll convert ALL the camera Bodies to Ultra 16mm. So, here's what I need to know:

1. Regarding the LENSES I'll choose to buy (since all the cameras will be ULTRA 16mm), is there any difference on buying 16mm or Super 16mm Lenses???
2. In case there is no difference, which are the ones you guys would advice to buy, Super 16mm or 16mm Lenses?
3. Between the mm choice of the lens, which are the brands more advised to buy. I have a wide range to choose from a guy that sells kern-paillard ones.
4. For last, but not least important, being 16mm or super 16mm lenses.... as I'll have Bolex and Arriflex cameras, which models would be best to fit all body models? Which adaptors necessary?


Thanks in advance for any help on making this clear for me.
I need to know this before buy the lenses and converting the cameras. Its quite an investment I don't want to spoil (vigneting) by any chance.
So, I need a list to what to buy regarding lenses and what NOT to do.

Best,

Flavio
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#2 Alain Lumina

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Posted 21 November 2010 - 10:30 PM

I don't know this particular camera, but the advantage of U16 for me was with the CP16r with canon 12-120mm zoom converted by Bernie ( who posts here and will know your answer)
was that I needed no other lens, U16 just uses a little more on each side of the gate so no lens recentering is needed.
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#3 Oliver Christoph Kochs

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Posted 22 November 2010 - 12:48 AM

Hello Flavio,

1. Yes. Most oft the lenses for standart 16mm do not cover S16. especially not the older Arri Std. mount lenses on the wide side. (8-25mm Zeiss, Schneider). You cold use the lenses intended for 35mm (for the 2C). They will work.

2. If you can afford it i would switch all the mounts to PL, so you can at least rent the better lenses. For the Bolex H16 it is very pleaseant that almost all prime lenses engraved RX actually do cover S16. The Kern Zooms (sigh) unfortunately do not. The Angenieux does not either.

3. Zeiss for the Arri, Kern Switar RX for the Bolex. The EL neeeds an adaptor to use the c-mount primes - the EL has a bayo mount because it was mostly intended to work with a 12.5 - 100 Kern-Vario which (again) does not cover S16.

4. If you can afford it, get a PL mount for the all. I am happy with both Les Bosher's and the c-mount to PL from Visual products for the Bolex. Any lens with fixed PL mount (manufacturing date around 1980) does cover the image area you need for S/U16.

5. ADD-ON: The Arri ST isn't a "conversion-friendly" camera. It's the mirror and groundglass that prevents it from having a larger negative area. You may have light leaks etc. I would stay away from it as i would stay away from U16. Go for a solid S16 conversion for the Bolex, please. This is the only camera of the above that will perform the way you need it. I have 2 S16 Bolex EL Mk3 and i am happy.

Best of luck
Oliver
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#4 flavio filho

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Posted 22 November 2010 - 09:16 AM

Hello Flavio,

1. Yes. Most oft the lenses for standart 16mm do not cover S16. especially not the older Arri Std. mount lenses on the wide side. (8-25mm Zeiss, Schneider). You cold use the lenses intended for 35mm (for the 2C). They will work.

2. If you can afford it i would switch all the mounts to PL, so you can at least rent the better lenses. For the Bolex H16 it is very pleaseant that almost all prime lenses engraved RX actually do cover S16. The Kern Zooms (sigh) unfortunately do not. The Angenieux does not either.

3. Zeiss for the Arri, Kern Switar RX for the Bolex. The EL neeeds an adaptor to use the c-mount primes - the EL has a bayo mount because it was mostly intended to work with a 12.5 - 100 Kern-Vario which (again) does not cover S16.

4. If you can afford it, get a PL mount for the all. I am happy with both Les Bosher's and the c-mount to PL from Visual products for the Bolex. Any lens with fixed PL mount (manufacturing date around 1980) does cover the image area you need for S/U16.

5. ADD-ON: The Arri ST isn't a "conversion-friendly" camera. It's the mirror and groundglass that prevents it from having a larger negative area. You may have light leaks etc. I would stay away from it as i would stay away from U16. Go for a solid S16 conversion for the Bolex, please. This is the only camera of the above that will perform the way you need it. I have 2 S16 Bolex EL Mk3 and i am happy.

Best of luck
Oliver


Hi guys.


Thaks loads for the answers.
Yep, I;ve spoke with Bernie by phone. He was amazing and gave all info I needed.
What I'll actually have to do is change my set for a STANDARD 16mm Bolex. SO, the conversion to ULTRA stays safe and all the lenses can be used without vigneting.

The PL mount is really necessary if I have a C-Mount adaptor? I'm getting a BOlex EL and a spring H16 REX-5.

What is nice of the spring REx-5 is the possibility to have 3 lenses mounted in thte camera and change whenever you want quickly. Isn't it possible or does exists an adaptor/mount for the Bolex Electric EL that allows you to mount all 3 lenses together?

The Arriflex I'm getting is the Arriflex S. I think... Not sure about the difference between th "S" and "ST" models if theres any...

Thanks for the tips about the lenses brands, Oliver. Much appreciated. But do you mean the ZOOM lenses or primes (or all?)
I'm getting a Angenieux 12-120 for the BOlex EL. And some primes for the BOlex Rex-5 Spring... So I need to know which are the best lenses to work with the bolex Rex-5...

Thanks a lot so far!
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#5 Matt Pacini

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Posted 22 November 2010 - 01:18 PM

Just abit of advice - the Angeniuex 12-120 is not a great lens.
Pretty soft, in my experience, & I've hard plenty of others who share that opinion.

Matt Pacini
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#6 Oliver Christoph Kochs

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Posted 23 November 2010 - 12:34 AM

Flavio,

as you need to convert the camera(s) anyway, i'd rather give them S16 - it's just more standardized. Only the Bolex can do S16 properly.The Arri ST can't go either S16 or Ultra16 properly.
You'd probably need 2 adaptors: one ist the Bolex Bayo to PL to use Zeiss or Cooke glass.
The second would be the Bolex Bayo to c-mount adapter to use the (classic) Kern RX lenses on the EL camera. These are probably the best choice for wide angle as the lenses have the RX correction to compensate for the viewfinders pellicle glass.

A H16EL with a 3 lens turret has never existed nor is there a attachment device that allows this. Unlike on the classic wind up Bolex all the SBM models were intended for use with zoom lenses (mostly the Kern Vario Switar 12.5-100 for the EL).

There IS a slight difference between the Arri ST models as follows:
1. Very early models didn't have the upper magazine mount
2. Normally the turret has 3 standard lens mounts. Later models have 2 standard and one Arri Bayo mount (for 1 zoom lens). This model is commonly called 16 SB.
3. The last series had a light meter built in, often called APEC model.

The Angenieux 12-120 is a very common lens. Yes, it's soft. But more important it does not cover S16/U16 at all so forget about it. Strong vignetting on the wide end. For the S16 Bolex there are 2 good choices: Kern RX lenses and PL mounted lenses for S16 and 35mm. Forget about the zoom lenses for standard 16mm. They will always have vignetting.
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#7 flavio filho

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Posted 24 November 2010 - 03:26 PM

Flavio,

as you need to convert the camera(s) anyway, i'd rather give them S16 - it's just more standardized. Only the Bolex can do S16 properly.The Arri ST can't go either S16 or Ultra16 properly.
You'd probably need 2 adaptors: one ist the Bolex Bayo to PL to use Zeiss or Cooke glass.
The second would be the Bolex Bayo to c-mount adapter to use the (classic) Kern RX lenses on the EL camera. These are probably the best choice for wide angle as the lenses have the RX correction to compensate for the viewfinders pellicle glass.

A H16EL with a 3 lens turret has never existed nor is there a attachment device that allows this. Unlike on the classic wind up Bolex all the SBM models were intended for use with zoom lenses (mostly the Kern Vario Switar 12.5-100 for the EL).

There IS a slight difference between the Arri ST models as follows:
1. Very early models didn't have the upper magazine mount
2. Normally the turret has 3 standard lens mounts. Later models have 2 standard and one Arri Bayo mount (for 1 zoom lens). This model is commonly called 16 SB.
3. The last series had a light meter built in, often called APEC model.

The Angenieux 12-120 is a very common lens. Yes, it's soft. But more important it does not cover S16/U16 at all so forget about it. Strong vignetting on the wide end. For the S16 Bolex there are 2 good choices: Kern RX lenses and PL mounted lenses for S16 and 35mm. Forget about the zoom lenses for standard 16mm. They will always have vignetting.



Hi guys.

Thansk for all your answers...

I'm negotiating a STANDARD Bolex EL. Still worried about the ZOOM LENSES, as per Oliver's post above... I'm not taking an Angenieux, but a KERN SWITAR H16 RX 100MM POE BAYO LENS.
WOuld this lens work well with a Bolex 16mm EL converted to ULTRA???

Thanks loads! I need to sort this out asap!

Flavio
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#8 imike

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Posted 07 December 2010 - 08:45 AM

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