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Ridley Scott is going to use the Epic to shoot his next SciFI film!


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#1 Keith Walters

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 06:04 AM

I'm not a rabid fan of Ridley Scott's movies. While I find them visually impressive, he does tend to mutilate certain SF concepts rather badly.
Still, RED are doing extraordinarily well for a camera that's barely off the production line.

Typical intelligent commentry from Reduser:

What gives me kinda of a sick gratification is how stupid all the Red haters must be feeling now.

For much of this year they have been bashing Epic and Scarlet as "vaporware" ... little did they know that the biggest players in Hollywood were collectively wagering BILLIONS of dollars on Red's "non-existent" technology!

Oooooooooooooooooooooooh it hurts


Since none of us here are really Red Haters (with maybe one or two exceptions :rolleyes: ) such comments merely serve to amuse. As always, most of the barbed comments were aimed at the ludicrous expostulations of the fanboy element, not the cameras themselves.

Some time back I stopped wasting time, money and popcorn on going to see RED-shot features I wasn't really interested in, just to see what all the excitement was about. The only conclusion I was able to reach was: "Yes, it does indeed make you go blind!"

Well maybe at last there'll be something I actually want to watch, that's also shot with one of their cameras.

It'll be a good christmas present for Jim and co, (or a belated 60th birthday present, whatever)

Can't believe I beat Emanuel to the punch again :P
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#2 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 07:19 AM

Have they started shipping Epics yet?
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#3 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 12:37 PM

Have they started shipping Epics yet?


Well, they are going out already, being used on "Spider-Man 4" and soon "The Hobbit", which are 3D movies and thus need twice as many bodies. Whether that counts as "shipping" I don't know, but people are starting to receive them.

I don't blame Tom for leaving this forum. I've been here since before 1998 and feel like I'm almost a founding member, and the silly digital bashing that goes on here is driving this forum into irrelevancy. I'll stick around out of loyalty and the hopes that things will turn around eventually when there will be no point in not accepting digital as a mainstream acquisition tool.

Now I've told him over the years that it's the same three or so people that are the worst offenders and if you ignored them, this forum is fairly balanced, but of course, it's those people who post the most often.

Tom may be overly optimistic and see everything about digital in a positive light, but that's no reason to drown him with sarcasm and cynicism in response, rather than an honest and accurate assessment of the facts.

This site is the yin-and yang of RedUser, if that place is overly positive about Red (for obvious reasons) this place is overtly hostile about Red, and it doesn't help anyone, not the Red folk, who continuously carry this unnecessary chip on their shoulder despite their cameras being embracing by multi-million dollar productions, and not the people here.
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#4 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 12:47 PM

I'm not sure I see a huge amount of out and out digital bashing, but I do find myself scanning the first line of quite a few posts and perhaps detecting that they're heading in that direction, then frankly ignoring the rest, so maybe I'm overlooking it (and if so great).

Can't get too excited that one person has decided to have a hissy fit though.

If they're releasing them to be used then ordinarily I'd say they weren't vapourware, but it's always a good idea to make sure they work before making that sort of claim.

Otherwise I think Red in respect of their approach to marketing are their own worst enemy.
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#5 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 01:15 PM

I'm not sure I see a huge amount of out and out digital bashing, but I do find myself scanning the first line of quite a few posts and perhaps detecting that they're heading in that direction, then frankly ignoring the rest, so maybe I'm overlooking it (and if so great).

Can't get too excited that one person has decided to have a hissy fit though.

If they're releasing them to be used then ordinarily I'd say they weren't vapourware, but it's always a good idea to make sure they work before making that sort of claim.

Otherwise I think Red in respect of their approach to marketing are their own worst enemy.


Actually, how much actual advertising do you see from Red? What most people think of as "Red Marketing" is just chat on the internet, some of which Red controls, a lot of it is out of their control. So in some ways, it's their non-professional fans that are their own worst enemy, not their marketing department.

What some people have a hard time getting used to is the small-company personality of Red, where the owner is commenting on internet posts and talking directly to the public.

I think Red is still being beat-up for the early circus-tent atmosphere of their initial introduction to the public, and the general rock-n-roll attitude that flies in the face of corporate conservatism that most vendors follow. In some ways they are changing, trying to act more grown-up for the studio suits to not get scared away, but in some ways, they are just following the beat of their own drummer, and more power to them, we don't need another Sony and Panasonic, or even Canon. What we need is the digital equivalent of ARRI, something devoted to professional filmmaking products without the distraction of making consumer gear in volume, and something without a corporate board of directors looking at the monthly profit statements. Red, to me, is more like the old days when we had small camera companies like Beaulieu, Bolex, Cinema Products, and we need more companies like that, small and nimble.

What's annoying here is that while I think Red can be a bit paranoid, thinking that folks are out to get them, and that they don't need to carry this big chip on their shoulder any more, like Rodney Dangerfield asking for respect, this forum turns around and says something stupid that just confirms their paranoia. But since this forum is becoming increasingly irrelevant, it becomes easier to ignore.

Which is sad, because by incorporating both film and digital production on one site, this place has the potential to rise above merely being a product user's site and cover the broader aspects of filmmaking and cinematography. We should be product/tool agnostic here, but instead, we've become the Alamo, the last stand for people using film before they are decimated. It doesn't have to be that way.

Even the title of this thread is snarky and unpleasantly cynical and if I were a moderator here, I'd probably delete it.
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#6 John Sprung

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 02:11 PM

What we need is the digital equivalent of ARRI, ....


Um .... Alexa? Arri is very much in the digital business. We have two shows on Alexa, and one on Red. They both work. The Alexa is clearly better, but it's a bunch more money. Kinda like BMW versus Kia.





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#7 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 02:20 PM

Um .... Alexa? Arri is very much in the digital business. We have two shows on Alexa, and one on Red. They both work. The Alexa is clearly better, but it's a bunch more money. Kinda like BMW versus Kia.





-- J.S.


Sure, we have ARRI and Alexa, but there should be competition. We need a vibrant, healthy mix of digital camera manufacturers and I think Red should not try to be another Sony or Panasonic, we have plenty of mega-corporations making broadcast video equipment.
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#8 Robert Houllahan

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 03:08 PM

It does seem like Red and JJ have come a long way since the first camera and they are certainly doing allot of high end work with their latest gen. of cameras, lots of 3D it seems. Like David said MP equipment has traditionally been made by small companies for a small niche market and while the F35, etc. are out there it does seem that Alexa and the newer Red's are being used more and more for "Film" work instead of gear from the big broadcast manufacturers.


-Rob-
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#9 Francesco Bonomo

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 03:10 PM

Actually, how much actual advertising do you see from Red? What most people think of as "Red Marketing" is just chat on the internet, some of which Red controls, a lot of it is out of their control. So in some ways, it's their non-professional fans that are their own worst enemy, not their marketing department.


David, I do agree with you on your last statement, but I also think that there's an inherent problem the way the "red controlled internet chat" is actually controlled. For instance, there is a post today up at RedUser where a member of the red team posted an image that doesn't do anything but fuel the stupid fanboyism seen there (in this specific case, Epic vs Alexa), or complaining about the article in Variety. Do the company have the right to complain about that article? Yes, indeed. But why are they complaining to an audience which is composed by a lot of people who cannot wait to bash every other camera, or the "studio system" (unless it's using red), or the "haters"? To me it's pretty childish, and it's such a shame because I don't have ANY problem with Red (the company, of course..as an assistant I have a few complaints about the camera, but that's another matter), I am not interested in buying any camera equipment, but the more I know about any given camera system, the better I can do my job. I've found loads of interesting and useful information on RedUser when I needed it, but 9 times out of 10 it was buried under tons of misinformation, Arri/Panavision/Sony/Panasonic/Film bashing, red-worshipping, and that world-domination attitude that is quite frankly pathetic. I know how to use Panavision, Arri and Moviecam, there are some things I like about each one of those systems, but I don't go saying Panavision sucks, Arri is better, soon there will be no more -insert camera brand-, or post a drawing of an engineer of the supposed competition shooting himself.
Unfortunately that adds to the perception some people have of the company, and reflects badly on the camera even now that it's not the same Red it was 2 years ago (actually I pointed this out a while ago on reduser, and the thread was closed and removed). It looks like Red has a winner with Epic, and we all should be happy about it or at least be able to talk about it without falling in the old "star trek vs. star wars" attitude of internet forums, but I think it would take a change of attitude from the way the reduser forums are run at the moment, and I'm not sure Red is willing to do that.
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#10 John Sprung

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 03:20 PM

Red's in a special niche all their own, of their own creation. I don't see any danger of them changing that focus. Arri is king of the digital hill at the moment. What's up with Panavision I don't know.... Have they replaced Andy? Is this market really big enough for another competitor, perhaps Thompson that made the Viper?





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#11 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 03:40 PM

I hope none of this is aimed at me - I've shot film less times ever than I suspect Mr Mullen has this month.

P
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#12 K Borowski

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 04:29 PM

Where did Tome say this?


We disagree on practically everything, but I don't want him to leave here because of that.
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#13 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 04:51 PM

You have to face the fact that a site called "RedUser" is going to be made up of people who like the product, but one would hope that at a site called "Cinematography.Com" there would be some more objectivity, and by that, I don't mean counteracting fanboyism by being derogatory and snide, I mean, having some perspective on the topic.

We seem to live in a day and age of partisanship... and it gets a bit silly when you aren't talking about life-and-death moral issues, but instead, filmmaking technology!

If Red wants to go to RedUser to get a pat on the back or fan validation/adoration/sympathy/encouragement, whatever, that's their business, it's a community centered around them after all. I think, to some extent, they do have an obligation to counteract an article if they feel it misrepresents them, though clearly they are preaching to the choir if they choose RedUser as the place to mount a counterargument to the Variety article.

Yesterday I had lunch at the Deluxe Labs holiday party and then dinner at the ASC holiday party, so there was plenty of tech talk. There was, to some extent, a lot of DP's who had some legitimate issues with Red footage, though most of them were post house issues, but I also got some consensus that a 1080P camera like the Alexa was better-designed for TV work than for features where we need to start to get beyond 1080P origination. What a lot of discussions boiled down to was "I like the Red for resolution, and size & weight, I like the Alexa for how it goes through color-correction" which is basically saying that Red could have done a better job early on with the color science aspects, but on the other hand, so could the post houses, which have been stuck in a 10-bit Cineon Log film scan-centric mentality and are struggling to get beyond that. So clearly the digital cameras that the post houses like the most are the ones that stick closest to the film color space & gamma that they are used to.

Just the other day, the colorist for "United States of Tara" thanked me for picking the Genesis for the series because of the short time allotted for color-correction, the gist being that Panalog is very easy to color-correct for rec.709 broadcast. I've heard this before from other colorists when shooting pilots, which also have an extremely short color-correction time budgeted.

But things keep changing, more and more post houses are going tapeless, to data-centric workflows, and are dealing with R3D files every day for TV shows and whatnot. And Red keeps improving their cameras and color science and transcoding tools. When I did the pilot for what is now called "Chicago Code" (airs in February on Fox) using the M-X Red One, the local post house was surprised at how more or less "correct" the conversion to Redgamma looked on their HD monitors, they had never seen Red footage that was so easy to color-correct.

So at some point, the past becomes the past, we can't keep beating up Red for the camera they released three years ago (and Red has to stop reliving and reviving those old battles and criticisms), we ALL need to deal with the present and the near future.
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#14 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 04:59 PM

I hope none of this is aimed at me - I've shot film less times ever than I suspect Mr Mullen has this month.

P


Phil, you are an equal-opportunity critic, as my many arguments with you over film in the past have demonstrated. Take this as a joke, but sometimes you remind me of that line (I think) in a Clint Eastwood / Dirty Harry movie -- something to the effect that "Callahan ain't prejudiced -- he hates everyone!" ;)

If Red feels that you don't give them a fair shake, they haven't read your posts on other companies' tech...
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#15 Keith Walters

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 05:08 PM

I think Red is still being beat-up for the early circus-tent atmosphere of their initial introduction to the public, and the general rock-n-roll attitude that flies in the face of corporate conservatism that most vendors follow. In some ways they are changing, trying to act more grown-up for the studio suits to not get scared away,

To paraphrase a line from The Young Ones there are probably a few isolated and still unknown tribes in the highlands of New Guinea who haven't heard how Jim Jannard dealt with criticism (or tried to) in the early days. That's not going to fade away anytime soon.

Apart from that, no matter how much he denies it, there is always going to be the "mid-life crisis" cachet hanging over the project. It's not like he has a **genuine** vested interest in the project, as in, if it fails, he'll lose everything.

In the case of your much-maligned Sonys and Panasonics, if the head honcho should have a stroke or fall under a bus tomorrow, there is a reasonable expectation that the company would proceed more or less as usual from there. Would Jim's heirs allow RED to continue in its current form? Who knows; it's structured nothing like the "usual suspects". This can be (and is) a positive thing for the customers, but the suits who have to pay the bills may see it differently.

As for Tom Lowe, I challenge you to point me to a single post where he has contributed something useful. All he has ever done is spout his "come the RED-volution" nonsense and make foolish wagers. Then he tried several times to shift the parameters of the bet, then, when it was obvious he'd lost, still refused to admit he was wrong, and attempted to marginalize the victors as "poor winners", too irrelevant to spent any more time with.

To quote Phil Rhodes: "Not on my watch!"

Anyway you be grateful to people like us, it gives people like you a spelndid opportunity to stand up and be counted :P
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#16 K Borowski

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 05:13 PM

Phil, you are an equal-opportunity critic, as my many arguments with you over film in the past have demonstrated. Take this as a joke, but sometimes you remind me of that line (I think) in a Clint Eastwood / Dirty Harry movie -- something to the effect that "Callahan ain't prejudiced -- he hates everyone!" ;)

If Red feels that you don't give them a fair shake, they haven't read your posts on other companies' tech...


I agree. Phil you are an amusingly critical cynic, but you almost always have a valid point.



That's a great tribute, my spelling "Tom" wrong, kind of like a combination of his first and last names. . . Did he really say he was leaving though? Anyone have a link?
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#17 Keith Walters

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 05:16 PM

I agree. Phil you are an amusingly critical cynic, but you almost always have a valid point.



That's a great tribute, my spelling "Tom" wrong, kind of like a combination of his first and last names. . . Did he really say he was leaving though? Anyone have a link?


Right here
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#18 Francesco Bonomo

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 05:34 PM

You have to face the fact that a site called "RedUser" is going to be made up of people who like the product, but one would hope that at a site called "Cinematography.Com" there would be some more objectivity, and by that, I don't mean counteracting fanboyism by being derogatory and snide, I mean, having some perspective on the topic. We seem to live in a day and age of partisanship... and it gets a bit silly when you aren't talking about life-and-death moral issues, but instead, filmmaking technology!


Absolutely, that's why I joined this forum years ago, and that's why i learned (and keep learning) so much, from you and from so many others. Every time I realize I'm losing perspective by being too "partisan" (I hope i'm using the term correctly) I remind myself of what my brother does (he's a doctor and cures cancer patients), and it immediately makes every argument looks pretty silly in comparison.

If Red wants to go to RedUser to get a pat on the back or fan validation/adoration/sympathy/encouragement, whatever, that's their business, it's a community centered around them after all. I think, to some extent, they do have an obligation to counteract an article if they feel it misrepresents them, though clearly they are preaching to the choir if they choose RedUser as the place to mount a counterargument to the Variety article.


Yes, that's what I was saying, I don't see anything wrong with that, I was only trying to point out that you cannot have both, or at least it's not very easy: you cannot rely on thousands of fans on a forum for your validation/adoration/etc and then pretend that the perception that a lot of people have of you isn't influenced by that. I know cinematographers who were seriously interested in Red and ran away, so to speak, because of the answers given to them on RedUser by people who don't work for the company and don't own the camera.

So at some point, the past becomes the past, we can't keep beating up Red for the camera they released three years ago (and Red has to stop reliving and reviving those old battles and criticisms), we ALL need to deal with the present and the near future.


and that's why every time JJ announces a new project shot on Epic over at RedUser, I always hope we can get more information about specific technical things, not just names of cinematographers or directors. I know a quote from Wolski is great for marketing and validation, but I'd love to know more about setting up the camera and something about using RedMote, because from my very personal (and limited) perspective that's what I'm probably going to deal with the most once Epic is released. I'd love what Arri has done with the Alexa simulator and the Arridigital website, I hope Red does something like that for Epic.
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#19 Keith Walters

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 09:04 PM

I don't know whether most Americans have a defective irony gene in their DNA, (or maybe an irony bypass used to be a routine procedure in US maternity hospitals like circumcision :P) but whole point of the title of this thread(***Since altered by the moderators*** is that it pretty much sums up the average fanboy's view of the situation viz:

FRED KENERTZ
POSTED IN CINEMATOGRAPHY.COM that

Jim Jannard and RED have finally delivered the goods with a band new camera system called the EPIC. The Epic finally delivers no-questions-asked 35mm sized 4K imaging with improved colour rendition and dynamic range, giving the option of superior 2K post and delivery today, with enough "fat" in the system to allow future re-rendition for any higher resolution display formats that may be developed. In that respect they have arguably at last produced an all-electronic image capture system that is a credible alternative to film, both in image quality and future-proofing.
The Epic is fully modular, compact and lightweight, offers battery life more in line with what can be expected from a film camera and allows an almost infinite variety of user configurations
The question of whether they have in fact really delivered the goods seems convincingly answered by the growing number of mega-budget iconic franchises that are using or about to use the Epic.


Now, I don't specifically know how valid any of that is, I just made it up; my point is, the average fanboy's post here seems to have far more to do with being SEEN waving the RED flag, than telling us anything useful.

If we don't post anything here about some new development at RED, the immediate assumption appears to be that that's because we're too lazy, stupid or ignorant to bother checking out Reduser.net occasionally. If they want to come over here to discuss it, well, fine, but usually all we get is a blanket propaganda-dump, or a one-line link.

I was just getting in first :D
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#20 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 09:47 PM

I'm a big lover of irony and satire, but when it starts to become rudeness to a forum member in thin disguise, I think it's time to take a step back.
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