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INSCANITY! 4K HDR Film Scanning Comes to Cinelicious


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#1 Paul Korver

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Posted 12 March 2011 - 06:45 PM

Hi Guys & Gals,
So many of you and been with us through the growing pains of from where we started 3 years ago opening our doors with an URSA Diamond, to last year picking up a Spirit Datacine and moving into a larger facility. Today we're very happy to report that after a worldwide search for the best film scanning technology available... Cinelicious finally sealed the deal and bought a very exciting new 2K / 4K film scanner called the "Scanity" from Digital Film Technology. Based on our proprietary tests results vs. all other film scanners we considered "relevant" to the test (ie. ones we would consider buying...ARRI, Northlight, Spirit 4K, Golden Eye, P+S Technic Steady Frame) we can confidently say that it stood far enough above the pack for us to make the decision to go "all in" and make a relatively huge investment for such a young company. All in the pursuit of our passion which is creating the best images possible from motion picture film. Full press release and details can be found here:

http://cinelicious.tv/category/news

To me the most exciting thing about it is the huge leap in dynamic range provided by the cutting edge TDI sensor and LED light source. All other scanners are able to capture a dynamic range of around 2.3 film density (when there is 3.1- 3.3 density on motion picture negative). The Scanity blew us away with it's ability to capture 3.3 density which means that for the first time ever DPs can be confident that their DI scans are getting all the information on their negative.

Our Scanity is capable of scanning 16mm, S16mm, Ultra 16mm and 35mm (all perfs + Vista Vision) at 2K or 4K.

For those DIY types one cool workflow we're offering is 2K and 4K ProRes 4444 delivery (rather than DPX), which lightens the file size by about 1/6th from DPX. Of course we do SMPTE Standard LOG or Colored DPX as well.

Viva Celluloid!

-Paul
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#2 Will Montgomery

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Posted 13 March 2011 - 07:22 PM

And it's free for the next two weeks for cinematography.com users right?

Congrats on the mega-scanner. You guys really love what you do and it shows. Not sure how it could get any better than your Spirit scans but I'm sure your colorists can tell a difference and know what to look for. Sounds like the VFX world would love it.
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#3 Paul Korver

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Posted 13 March 2011 - 09:01 PM

And it's free for the next two weeks for cinematography.com users right?

Congrats on the mega-scanner. You guys really love what you do and it shows. Not sure how it could get any better than your Spirit scans but I'm sure your colorists can tell a difference and know what to look for. Sounds like the VFX world would love it.


Thanks Will. The Spirit looks great... but it can't touch the Scanity in terms of resolution, dynamic range or image stability. As such the Scanity will service 4 types of clients:
1) Feature Films that want the best possile quality and need a 4K DI for to be able to have content for the coming 4K D-Cinema screens that we'll be seeing more of now that the new 4K DLP chip (Christie, Barco & NEC) projectors is hitting the market:

http://www.christied...-projector.aspx

http://www.barco.com/pressrelease/2692

We will be installing one of these projectors in our 4K DI theater and offering 4K DCPs so offering a full 4K pipeline has already garnered some interest. I also think people will be blown away when they actually see 35mm at 4K resolution. All these years we've only been seeing a portion of the resolution of what is there on the negative.

2) Restoration Projects that want to restore film at it's true resolution. We have a few high end 4K restorations under way that we can't discuss yet but the owners of the film elements have been hugely pleased with the results:

http://magazine.crea...i-driveri-in-4k

3)TV commercials that have VFX shots and require fast turn around for high-quality, pin-registered scans.

4) Anyone who wants or requires higher dynamic range scans (ie.. especially those that have print stock they need scanned).

-Paul
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#4 Will Montgomery

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Posted 14 March 2011 - 03:28 PM

See if you can figure out a way to show the difference even if it is a still image so we can see.

I know it must be impossible with compression but some sort of tricky image in film where you can do an A/B test would be educational. Perhaps making it a downloaded large (but short) clip. Maybe one base with your Diamond, Spirit and Scanity so we can see the difference between scanners.
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#5 Evan Andrew John Prosofsky

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Posted 14 March 2011 - 05:33 PM

I agree! That would be great. Any chance we could see a comparison, Paul?
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#6 Paul Korver

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Posted 17 March 2011 - 02:03 PM

Will try to get something up later. Super swamped at the moment.

-Paul
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#7 Charles Zuzak

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 09:40 AM

Hi Guys & Gals,
So many of you and been with us through the growing pains of from where we started 3 years ago opening our doors with an URSA Diamond, to last year picking up a Spirit Datacine and moving into a larger facility. Today we're very happy to report that after a worldwide search for the best film scanning technology available... Cinelicious finally sealed the deal and bought a very exciting new 2K / 4K film scanner called the "Scanity" from Digital Film Technology. Based on our proprietary tests results vs. all other film scanners we considered "relevant" to the test (ie. ones we would consider buying...ARRI, Northlight, Spirit 4K, Golden Eye, P+S Technic Steady Frame) we can confidently say that it stood far enough above the pack for us to make the decision to go "all in" and make a relatively huge investment for such a young company. All in the pursuit of our passion which is creating the best images possible from motion picture film. Full press release and details can be found here:

http://cinelicious.tv/category/news

To me the most exciting thing about it is the huge leap in dynamic range provided by the cutting edge TDI sensor and LED light source. All other scanners are able to capture a dynamic range of around 2.3 film density (when there is 3.1- 3.3 density on motion picture negative). The Scanity blew us away with it's ability to capture 3.3 density which means that for the first time ever DPs can be confident that their DI scans are getting all the information on their negative.

Our Scanity is capable of scanning 16mm, S16mm, Ultra 16mm and 35mm (all perfs + Vista Vision) at 2K or 4K.

For those DIY types one cool workflow we're offering is 2K and 4K ProRes 4444 delivery (rather than DPX), which lightens the file size by about 1/6th from DPX. Of course we do SMPTE Standard LOG or Colored DPX as well.

Viva Celluloid!

-Paul


I don't doubt that the Scanity captures the greatest DRange of all competitive scanners, but I find it hard to believe that it can match the true resolution of the Filmlight Northlight scanner with the 8K linear CCD arrays.

Did you do any comparisons with the Imagica Imager XE Advanced Plus? It has a 10K CCD option for 8Kx6K/4Kx3K 35/4P scans. I'm sure it's very slow, but I'd love to see the output on that machine. (http://www.bcs.tv/pd...761/XE_ADV .pdf)

Does the Scanity have a wetgate option?

Lastly, what top of the line scanners are being used today for 65/5P? Given how many lines it could resolve, wouldn't you need an ultra high resolution scanner to prevent any aliasing? Who does the film scanning for IMAX feature films?
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#8 Chris Burke

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 06:29 PM

I don't doubt that the Scanity captures the greatest DRange of all competitive scanners, but I find it hard to believe that it can match the true resolution of the Filmlight Northlight scanner with the 8K linear CCD arrays.

Did you do any comparisons with the Imagica Imager XE Advanced Plus? It has a 10K CCD option for 8Kx6K/4Kx3K 35/4P scans. I'm sure it's very slow, but I'd love to see the output on that machine. (http://www.bcs.tv/pd...761/XE_ADV .pdf)

Does the Scanity have a wetgate option?

Lastly, what top of the line scanners are being used today for 65/5P? Given how many lines it could resolve, wouldn't you need an ultra high resolution scanner to prevent any aliasing? Who does the film scanning for IMAX feature films?

Imagica, I believe, has an 8k scanner especially built for 65mm. Big Foot, I have heard it called. I think it was used on the last Batman movie.
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#9 Paul Korver

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 11:43 PM

[quote name='Charles Zuzak' timestamp='1330526403' post='367155']
I don't doubt that the Scanity captures the greatest DRange of all competitive scanners, but I find it hard to believe that it can match the true resolution of the Filmlight Northlight scanner with the 8K linear CCD arrays.[/quote]

Film Fact# 1 - Kodak 35mm Vision 3 has around 85-100 lp/mm of resolution (depending on ASA) which is slightly less than 4K

Film Fact# 2 - Vision 3 has around 3.1 film density of dynamic range which far exceeds the capabilities of most scanners

It's true 8K from any scanner would resolve more lp/mm (around 220) than a 4K scan (around 110). But since there's less than 100 line pairs on 35mm negative I'd take 4K and 3.5 film density over 8K at 2.4 film density any day... it's the dynamic range that's being thrown away not the resolution.

[quote name='Charles Zuzak' timestamp='1330526403' post='367155']
Did you do any comparisons with the Imagica Imager XE Advanced Plus? It has a 10K CCD option for 8Kx6K/4Kx3K 35/4P scans. I'm sure it's very slow, but I'd love to see the output on that machine. (http://www.bcs.tv/pd...761/XE_ADV .pdf)
[/quote]

No I did not test the Imagica as it's not really thought of as a "gold standard" DI scanner. The goal of the tests were to compare the gold standard ARRI and Northlight pin-registered scanners to the new crop of optically/electronically pin-registered scanners (GoldenEye, P+S Technic Steady Frame, Scanity). As to the second part of the question about 10K 35mm scans I promise what you need when scanning 35mm... to quote John Galt's "truth about 4K" article is "better K, not more K". And if you can get better K (full dynamic range) and go fast that's a pretty compelling argument for a film scanning technology.

[quote name='Charles Zuzak' timestamp='1330526403' post='367155']
Does the Scanity have a wetgate option?
[/quote]
No... but it does embed IR dirt mattes and with the new digital ice solutions it's very powerful restoration scanner as well.

[quote name='Charles Zuzak' timestamp='1330526403' post='367155']
Lastly, what top of the line scanners are being used today for 65/5P? Given how many lines it could resolve, wouldn't you need an ultra high resolution scanner to prevent any aliasing? Who does the film scanning for IMAX feature films?
/quote]

I could be wrong but there are only (2) 70mm scanners that I am aware of in the world right now. The Imagica Bigfoot at Fotokem (11K) and the 70mm modified Northlight 8K at IMAX.

If you take away anything that I am saying it's that when it comes to scanning film resolution is easy... dynamic range is hard. Go for the dynamic range! Or both if you have the time and money to pay for it.

Best,

Paul
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#10 Charles Zuzak

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 10:24 AM

Film Fact# 1 - Kodak 35mm Vision 3 has around 85-100 lp/mm of resolution (depending on ASA) which is slightly less than 4K

What happens when you scan 4P anamorphic or Vista Vision? Do you have enough sensor/lens resolution on the SCANITY to handle those formats?
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#11 Charles Zuzak

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 11:25 AM

Also, it seems that even DFT admits (http://www.dft-film....white-paper.pdf pp. 5-6) that their choice of a Dalsa 4K sensor is not the be-all end-all of high resolution capture. Their whitepaper states that their choice of a 4K sensor was a practical decision and their other design choices were made to "disguise" aliasing. I thought the only way to truly combat aliasing is simply to sample at a higher rate.

After all, isn't that why the ARRISCANN has a 3Kx2K CMOS sensor that uses piezo actuator to scan at 6K to resolve for true 4K output?

Edited by Charles Zuzak, 06 March 2012 - 11:29 AM.

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#12 Paul Korver

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 04:01 AM

Also, it seems that even DFT admits (http://www.dft-film....white-paper.pdf pp. 5-6) that their choice of a Dalsa 4K sensor is not the be-all end-all of high resolution capture. Their whitepaper states that their choice of a 4K sensor was a practical decision and their other design choices were made to "disguise" aliasing. I thought the only way to truly combat aliasing is simply to sample at a higher rate.

After all, isn't that why the ARRISCANN has a 3Kx2K CMOS sensor that uses piezo actuator to scan at 6K to resolve for true 4K output?


That's no at all what I got out of the whitepaper. Charles... it sounds like to debate resolution and optical theory in your spare time... something I'm fairly short on these days. I've already put in a over years worth of research into analyzing all these scanners in real world settings... the results of which led us to our purchase decision. And if we weren't super excited by the results we were seeing from the Scanity then we would just bought a used ARRISCANNER for 1/5 the price. I'd be happy to share test results with you sometime if you want to stop by our shop in LA. And when you make a movie by all means scan it at 11K at 4 seconds per frame if you want. But for now going to check out of this conversation and get back to work.

Respectfully,

Paul
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#13 Charles Zuzak

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 10:18 AM

Sorry if it sounds like I'm trying to rain on your parade. I'm not; I'm merely playing devil's advocate.

Stopping by in LA would be mighty difficult. Any chance you could post a few scans of your resolution tests between the scanners you tested? After all, seeing is believing.

Edited by Charles Zuzak, 07 March 2012 - 10:18 AM.

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#14 Nick C.

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 08:12 AM

Hi Paul,

 

I read above, you mentioned S16mm is offered. What are (if any) the capabilities for S8mm? Regular 8mm?

 

And if so, is there any test footage available for viewing?

 

Thanks,

(Nick)

 


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#15 Sean Cunningham

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 11:03 AM

Sorry if it sounds like I'm trying to rain on your parade. I'm not; I'm merely playing devil's advocate.
...

 

The Film Fact #1 is only comparing spatial resolution still-for-still but the resolution of film and its ability to convey detail isn't realized without the temporal component, because grain isn't fixed unlike the rigid row and column of a digital display or scanner which creates exactly the type of edges our visual system is tuned to key off most ricky-tick.  Digital needs even more spatial oversampling to compensate, or it needs to otherwise overcome the limitations of fixed grid sampling. 

 

This is the principle behind the unfortunate Aaton Penelope.  The 4K scanning employed for 16mm reversal film, in the case of the remastering of The Texas Chainsaw Massacre might seem like bonkers overkill but that's closer to where 35mm scanning needs to head if you're interested in more than just "good enough".


Edited by Sean Cunningham, 13 March 2014 - 11:08 AM.

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