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When did Colour Neg first become available in 16mm?


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#1 John Woods

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 10:34 AM

Does anyone know when colour negative film first became available on 16mm (and perhaps what the stock was)? I had been told that it was surprisingly late, like not until the 1980s but he wasn't 100% sure.
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#2 Charlie Peich

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 10:57 AM

Does anyone know when colour negative film first became available on 16mm (and perhaps what the stock was)? I had been told that it was surprisingly late, like not until the 1980s but he wasn't 100% sure.


1968 --- 7/5254

1976 --- 7/5247 This stock helped launched popularity of 16mm neg production and post production for printing.

Kodak FIlm Chronology



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#3 John Holland

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 11:41 AM

I shot with 7251 which was a 50 asa and that was 1968 7254 then came along at 100 asa which i used to push a stop .
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#4 John Woods

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 07:14 PM

Thanks for the link. Makes sense, even with lag Canada often gets on some products I can't imagine that all of those 1970s NFB films were all shot on reversal.
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#5 John Sprung

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 04:38 PM

We shot a lot of 7247 in the 1970's. The earlier stocks were also available in 16, but not widely used because of the large grain.





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#6 Leo Anthony Vale

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 05:27 PM

We shot a lot of 7247 in the 1970's. The earlier stocks were also available in 16, but not widely used because of the large grain.


There were also problems with dust and dirt in the labs.

Though 'Grey Gardens' used 7254. It has great flesh tones.

7254 was used in Europe, I think mostly for TV.
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#7 John Holland

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 12:32 PM

7254 was as Leo said was used on Dramas on Tv in GB , reversal then tended be used for News . I dont why but here the labs were great with the neg and we didnt suffer with the dirt and dust that Us labs did.
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#8 Stephen Williams

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 01:59 PM

7254 was as Leo said was used on Dramas on Tv in GB , reversal then tended be used for News . I dont why but here the labs were great with the neg and we didnt suffer with the dirt and dust that Us labs did.


I think Rank (Denham) had 40,000 feet a day from the BBC, large quantities help with dirt.
In Zurich 35mm is often dirty due to tiny quantities, it's processed whilst you wait, as long as you have booked processing in advance!
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#9 James Steven Beverly

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 02:35 AM

Does anyone know when colour negative film first became available on 16mm (and perhaps what the stock was)? I had been told that it was surprisingly late, like not until the 1980s but he wasn't 100% sure.



1929

http://www.robbiesreels.com/1920.htm

"Color film becomes a reality for amateur cinematographers with the introduction of 16mm Kodacolor. Kodak bought the rights to the old Keller-Dorian process in 1925 and spent most of three years developing it. Initially the Model B Cine Kodak was the only camera in which Kodacolor could be used, but a short-lived Kodacolor version of the Model A appeared more than a year later at the end of 1929."

Edited by James Steven Beverly, 26 April 2011 - 02:36 AM.

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#10 Simon Wyss

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 03:33 AM

Sorry, James, but Kodacolor was a reversal film.

So far I could find out Eastmancolor 7247 was available from 1951 on but soon replaced. Problem was that there were no labs equipped to process it until only towards the end of the fifties.
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#11 Charles MacDonald

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Posted 26 April 2011 - 06:18 PM

"Color film becomes a reality for amateur cinematographers with the introduction of 16mm Kodacolor.


That early 16mm Colour was a black and white reversal emulsion coated on a lenticular base, used with filter adaptors on the camera and projector.
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#12 Adam Hunt

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 02:33 AM

Sorry, James, but Kodacolor was a reversal film.


Sorry Simon, but Kodacolor was in fact negative film. The super-famous Kodachrome was a reversal film. In fact it is pretty standard practice for film manufacturers to use brand names ending in chrome to represent colour-reversal films: Kodachrome, Fujichrome, Agfachrome. And brand names ending in color to represent colour-negative films: Kodacolor, Fujicolor, Agfacolor.

Although, I believe Kodachrome was introduced in 1929, and Kodacolor didn't come along until 1942. I'm not sure if it was available in 16mm or even 35mm motion picture stock at that time. I know in the world of still photography it was first introduced in larger 620 roll film and didn't debut in 35mm roll film until 1958.
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#13 Adam Hunt

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 03:09 AM

That early 16mm Colour was a black and white reversal emulsion coated on a lenticular base, used with filter adaptors on the camera and projector.


I think that other website mistakenly shows a box of the later available Kodacolor when it was in fact it was Kodachrome that was introduced into the amateur movie market in 1923.

The famous Technicolor process which was first introduced in 2-colour/2-strip and later 3-colour/3-strip in 1923 and 1932 respectively. It was never available in 16mm, only 35mm. Kodak's own site clearly states it was a colour-reversal process introduced into the amateur movie market in 1923 while 2-strip Technicolor was introduced into the pro market the same year.

The process you speak of above was marketed under the Kodacolor name although it was something totally different than the negative films Kodak made for decades afterward under the same Kodacolor name. It was introduced in 1928.

I did a little research since my last post, so it seems you were right Simon, the first Kodacolor was a reversal film but it was preceded by Kodachrome which came to 16mm a few years earlier. Although this was actually not the same as the K-12 and K-14 Kodachromes made later (K-14 being made until 2009).
Kodak's chronology of film
Wikipedia on Kodacolor reversal film
Wikipedia on Kodacolor negative film

The first reference in Kodak's chronology to 16mm black and white negative was 7229 in 1963. They don't make reference to a colour-negative film for 16mm until 1983 with 7291, but it doesn't explicitly say it was introduced then and obviously some people who have posted remember that there was 16mm colour-negative before that. Perhaps it is the Kodak chronology that originated that 80s rumour.
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#14 Adam Hunt

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 03:15 AM

Some fun stuff:

Here is some test footage shot with the early Kodachrome (that pre-dated the lenticular Kodacolor).

And here is what Kodak has yet again re-purposed it's Kodacolor brand name for.

Edited by Adam Hunt, 28 April 2011 - 03:16 AM.

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#15 Mark Dunn

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 05:04 AM

That clip has the distinctive look of the two-colour lenticular Kodacolor, which is, as you said, reversal. It has evidently been misdescribed as Kodachrome. Kodak make no mention of Kodachrome before 1930 and I suppose they should know.
In fact Kodacolor dates from 1928 so even the date is wrong. Mannes and Godowsky didn't even take out patents until 1924.

Aargh! I can't believe they've re-used Kodacolor for ink. Still, it's their show
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#16 Mark Dunn

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 05:12 AM

They don't make reference to a colour-negative film for 16mm until 1983 with 7291,


No, it refers to '54 in 1968. '47 replaced it in about 1976. I, and many others no doubt, used it personally in 1979. There was nothing faster until Fuji A250 in 1980.
There's a famous story about '54 being temporarily reintroduced in 35mm after John Alcott complained during the shooting of Barry Lyndon.
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#17 John Sprung

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 12:35 PM

... 2-strip Technicolor ...


Actually, the two primary Technicolor was a single strip prismatic over/under process. There were other two color systems that used two strips in a bi-pack, and Technicolor went with a bi-pack plus a green record for their three strip process.

VistaVision originated with old two primary Technicolor cameras turned on their sides, and the aperture opened up for the full 8 perfs. It was a natural idea, because the 8 perf movements already existed.




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#18 John Holland

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 12:53 PM

I think you will find that Paramount and Mitchell Cameras built VistaVision cameras from scratch > The old 3 strip
Technicolor were converted by that company to run 8 perf a system they called Technirama which included a 1.25 anamorphic , which then could be used to make wonderful 70 mm prints if required . This a long away from the thread about when 16mm colour neg was first used !
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#19 Adam Hunt

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 03:39 PM

No, it refers to '54 in 1968.


Absolutely right! I missed that.



Actually, the two primary Technicolor was a single strip prismatic over/under process. There were other two color systems that used two strips in a bi-pack, and Technicolor went with a bi-pack plus a green record for their three strip process.


Now that you mention this, I remember reading all of this a year or two ago when I was trying to recreate the 2-colour look for a project.
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#20 Adam Hunt

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 03:54 PM

That clip has the distinctive look of the two-colour lenticular Kodacolor, which is, as you said, reversal. It has evidently been misdescribed as Kodachrome. Kodak make no mention of Kodachrome before 1930 and I suppose they should know.
In fact Kodacolor dates from 1928 so even the date is wrong. Mannes and Godowsky didn't even take out patents until 1924.


According to Kodak it is Kodachrome and from 1922. Keep in mind though that this is an internal Kodak test, so even though actual Kodachrome was not introduced until 1935 they would have been experimenting with it long before that. Kodak also claims it is "some of the earliest colour motion picture film you will see" which would fit with the 1922 date which precedes the 2-colour 35mm process.
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