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Cinelicious Installs Scanity


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#1 Keith Walters

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 01:27 AM

From BTL news
"...resolution test films made up in Prague that resolve 250 lp/mm" ??
That's basically 12,500 actual lines across a super-35 image area. Can you actually do that with 35mm film, and if so, how?
Clearly film is not quite dead yet.
You can download a WhitePaper on Film Scanning abd the Scanity from DFT's (Formerly Spirit/Grass Valley) Web Site
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#2 Francesco Bonomo

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 03:01 AM

From BTL news
"...resolution test films made up in Prague that resolve 250 lp/mm" ??
That's basically 12,500 actual lines across a super-35 image area. Can you actually do that with 35mm film, and if so, how?
Clearly film is not quite dead yet.
You can download a WhitePaper on Film Scanning abd the Scanity from DFT's (Formerly Spirit/Grass Valley) Web Site


Thanks for posting the link, Keith. Paul from Cinelicious posted about this a couple of months ago, definitely good news.
http://www.cinematog...showtopic=50843

Not being an expert in numbers and/or scanning technologies, forgive me if I ask what's the exact meaning of 12.500 lines. Does it mean we could theoretically get a 11k or 8k scan with this technology whenever that "size" becomes projectable? Is the scanner "limited" to 2k/4k just because that's going to be the "standard" for the time being?
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#3 Paul Korver

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 01:59 PM

From BTL news
"...resolution test films made up in Prague that resolve 250 lp/mm" ??
That's basically 12,500 actual lines across a super-35 image area. Can you actually do that with 35mm film, and if so, how?
Clearly film is not quite dead yet.
You can download a WhitePaper on Film Scanning abd the Scanity from DFT's (Formerly Spirit/Grass Valley) Web Site


Hi Keith,
Thanks for reposting this. The resolution test targets I had made did indeed go to 250 lp/mm and were done on 35mm HOLOGRAPHIC film stock but you are correct... it would have been impossible to accomplish with motion picture negative which tops out around 120 theoretical (lasered) and 85 lp/mm real world images shot through glass. But the point the target was to test the resolution of the various scanners (ARRI, Northlight, Spirit 4K, Scanity, GoldenEye, PS Technic SteadyFrame) so I wanted to far supersede their spec. All but the Steady Frame (which was the only bayer-pattern sensor in the bunch) performed quite well with less than 5 lp/mm difference in resolutions with 2K resolving 42-47 lp/mm and 4K scans resolving 103-108 lp/mm.

Similarly the Dynamic Range charts go from 0-4 film density which is quite a more dynamic range than is on film stock and way beyond the capabilities of any film scanner. Most interestingly, the Scanity did blow away the ARRI, Northlight and Spirit 4K in the the dynamic range test... coming in about 3.3 film density and the others at around 2.3.

Good times!

-Paul
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#4 Francesco Bonomo

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 05:44 PM

Similarly the Dynamic Range charts go from 0-4 film density which is quite a more dynamic range than is on film stock and way beyond the capabilities of any film scanner. Most interestingly, the Scanity did blow away the ARRI, Northlight and Spirit 4K in the the dynamic range test... coming in about 3.3 film density and the others at around 2.3.


Paul, forgive me for asking this, but I really know very little about scanning technology, though I'm trying to learn: are you saying that even the best film scans today (pre-Scanity, so to speak) "capture" slightly more than half of the real dynamic range of motion picture film?
Would love to see Scanity up close, hopefully Technicolor Rome or the labs at Cinecittà will be smart enough to invest in such a system.
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#5 Keith Walters

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 12:30 AM

Hi Keith,
Thanks for reposting this. The resolution test targets I had made did indeed go to 250 lp/mm and were done on 35mm HOLOGRAPHIC film stock but you are correct... it would have been impossible to accomplish with motion picture negative which tops out around 120 theoretical (lasered) and 85 lp/mm real world images shot through glass. But the point the target was to test the resolution of the various scanners (ARRI, Northlight, Spirit 4K, Scanity, GoldenEye, PS Technic SteadyFrame) so I wanted to far supersede their spec. All but the Steady Frame (which was the only bayer-pattern sensor in the bunch) performed quite well with less than 5 lp/mm difference in resolutions with 2K resolving 42-47 lp/mm and 4K scans resolving 103-108 lp/mm.

Similarly the Dynamic Range charts go from 0-4 film density which is quite a more dynamic range than is on film stock and way beyond the capabilities of any film scanner. Most interestingly, the Scanity did blow away the ARRI, Northlight and Spirit 4K in the the dynamic range test... coming in about 3.3 film density and the others at around 2.3.

Good times!

-Paul

Over the last 40 years we've seen a number of "film is dead" cycles, where industry nonentities have somehow managed to loudmouth non-technical management into believing that XXX new video technology offers overwhelming advantages over film. Others, not wishing to be seen to be old-fashioned, jump on the bandwagon too, but it never lasts and the industry inevitably drifts back to film.
Cable and "low rent" digital channels are fast becoming a tragic a museum of these inept technological experiments at the Networks' expense.
Numerous sitcoms 45 years old and more, shot in colour by forward-thinking producers, have been re-scanned to HD, de-scratched, colour-corrected and re-framed for 16 x 9, and it’s more or less business as usual. From the image quality alone, the average viewer would never pick that some of these shows were shot nearly a half-century ago.
Shows shot on videotape, on the other hand, were only ever designed to be seen of NTSC screens 26 inches and less, and they look it. On a large modern flat-panel TV, they just look sad….
Compare “Taxi” and “Barney Miller”. They’re broadly similar format ensemble comedies, with similar budgets and production values. Taxi was shot on 35mm film, Barney Miller in NTSC on 2” videotape. Taxi holds up extremely well scanned to HD, Barney Miller is never going to look any better than the 70s-era tube-based studio TV cameras it was shot with. It looks really miserable on a 50” screen.
Once NTSC, always NTSC.
Once SD Betacam, always SD Betacam.
Once 640 x 480 SD DigiBeta, always Digibeta.
Once 1440 x 1080 HDCAM, always 1440 x 1080 HDCAM.
Meanwhile, as the Scanity demonstrates, every year, it becomes possible to extract more and more information from the original 35mm negative.
As far as cinemas go, no question that the writing is on the wall for film projection. 4K electronic projection will eventually become the norm in cinemas, and there will be a push to extract every bit of information that the original negatives contain.
4K for home use is still somewhat further off, and it will almost certainly be based on OLED technology. However it will still need something a lot better than 1080p to make it worthwhile.
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#6 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 01:19 AM

It strikes me that issues of weave and grain are likely to affect the usability of these numbers more than somewhat.

On Saturday I watched a film (Source Code) at the Arclight in Hollywood projected from 35mm, which was a reminder of all the ways in which digital projection looks better!
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#7 Paul Korver

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 02:03 AM

Paul, forgive me for asking this, but I really know very little about scanning technology, though I'm trying to learn: are you saying that even the best film scans today (pre-Scanity, so to speak) "capture" slightly more than half of the real dynamic range of motion picture film?
Would love to see Scanity up close, hopefully Technicolor Rome or the labs at Cinecittà will be smart enough to invest in such a system.


Francesco... I was surprised too. But we must remember that information on negative film is normally like a bell shaped curve so scanners scanning at 2.3 will be capturing a majority of the relevant information... especially on low-to-medium dynamic range scenes. Obviously DIs up to this point have looked pretty good :). However, on high dynamic range scenes these scanners are not capturing all the information that the DP intended to capture and is on the film. I will say that it is comforting that in our DIs from here on out if one of our DP clients asks if there is more info in those highlights we can without reservation and definitively say answer "no"... because we now have the ability to capture it all (3.3) in the DPX file. That's very exciting to me and that's why, even with film being shot less we decided to really stretch and buy the Scanity. It's exciting that someone (DFT) is actually innovating in the area of film.


It strikes me that issues of weave and grain are likely to affect the usability of these numbers more than somewhat.

On Saturday I watched a film (Source Code) at the Arclight in Hollywood projected from 35mm, which was a reminder of all the ways in which digital projection looks better!


I hear you Phil. While I'm a huge fan of film as an acquisition format I would not be too sad if film projection went away... other than for the fact that some very cool fellow film-geeks (projectionists) would be out of a job. Yes it's nostalgic but sometimes it can be distracting and take away from the story. My personal favorite workflow would be 35mm acquistion, 4K pin-reg HDR Scanity Scan, 4K DLP projection for the DI, and 4K DCP deliverable. And that's what we're building toward. We break ground on our 4K DI theater in June (25' horizontal screen) and we're in line to pick up one of the first available DLP 4K projectors... just waiting to see which of Christie, Barco or NEC hits the market first. Did you see the 4K Christie at NAB? Pretty stunning. Unfortunately it was only showing 4K RED material.


Viva Celluloid!

Paul
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Visual Products

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Glidecam

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Technodolly

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Opal

Rig Wheels Passport

Abel Cine

Broadcast Solutions Inc

CineLab

Aerial Filmworks

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Metropolis Post

The Slider