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Arri 16s Cables & conversion to 12V


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#1 flavio filho

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 11:21 AM

Hi.

Just got my 2 Arri 16s sets by post. Serial number around 6000 and one around 8000.
Unfortunately it arived with the 4 mags broken acrylic on the footage meter, BECAUSE the guy who sent me put 2 mags together, each motor facing that part... Damn!

Anyway, both cameras are pristine, and one body works but the other not, says the seller.

NOW... I want to make the whole set work but want to test myself first before send anywhere to overhaul. Good to learn more about the camera as well.

So...

PART 1
What's the best way to build 2 power cables to conenct the cameras to a battery? I have an old belt battery but only power cable to plug on the mains to recharge.

Or a cheaper way to buy 2 cables. On filmcamerakit.com the cables are £75 EACH I think. Is there a cheaper place you guys now (in UK or EUROPE) or is it better build them myself? i only want to use wuality material and make them really sturdy.

I have precision tools at home, solder, etc, as my wife is jewelry designer, so I only need to know how to do that.


PART 2

I need to CONVERT all my mag motors and all necessary things on the set to 12V, cause I have a Tobin motor 12V as well. So better convert all to avoid problems. I saw here in the forum a topic of someone talking about cnverting motors from 8V to 12V, what parts to buy, how to do, etc... but couldn't find the topic.


Ian was helping me with some electrical tips... Ian, are you around?


Anyway, every help more than welcome, (actually and tip is a life-saver).
And let the saga begin.

F
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#2 Ian Cooper

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 02:30 PM

<snip>

PART 1
What's the best way to build 2 power cables to conenct the cameras to a battery? I have an old belt battery but only power cable to plug on the mains to recharge.

<snip>




Cheapest and most versatile way is to make your own. I suggest you refer back to my previous posts on the subject as they include links showing where all the parts can be bought, along with how it needs to be wired together. If you have a 'Maplin Electronics' shop in a nearby town then all the bits will be available off the shelf there.



I have precision tools at home, solder, etc, as my wife is jewelry designer, so I only need to know how to do that.


Just be aware that the solder used for jewelry work is different to electronics solder, and usually jewelry soldering gets done with a flame rather than a soldering iron ;)




PART 2



Sorry, don't know enough about the Arri 16S to be able to pass comment.



Ian was helping me with some electrical tips... Ian, are you around?



Still around, still willing to offer advice.



If you want somebody to take a look at the non-functioning camera then I'd recommend dropping Les Bosher a line, or give him a ring. A very friendly and helpful chap.
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#3 flavio filho

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 03:49 PM

hey Ian.

I knew you would answer. That's wicked, thanks loads!

I'm aware of the soldering type, I have it.
I'll look for the stuff on Maplin. Have decided I will do it myself. ;)

After I find everything, in case I need some further advice, I will post it here.

Thanks, man!

Flavio
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#4 Will Montgomery

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Posted 23 May 2011 - 04:35 PM

Another less high-tech method is to contact your local camera rental houses and ask if they have any of these cables laying around.

I went to one near me and they were like, "Wow, you're using an Arri 2C? We have tons of stuff lying around for that but we sold the cameras years ago..." I left with a bunch of old type motor/battery connector cables and other misc accessories that they were happy to donate to the cause of keeping one of those cameras alive.

They also had a bunch of fully functional Arri 16s's on a shelf for decoration.
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#5 flavio filho

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Posted 23 May 2011 - 05:22 PM

Another less high-tech method is to contact your local camera rental houses and ask if they have any of these cables laying around.

I went to one near me and they were like, "Wow, you're using an Arri 2C? We have tons of stuff lying around for that but we sold the cameras years ago..." I left with a bunch of old type motor/battery connector cables and other misc accessories that they were happy to donate to the cause of keeping one of those cameras alive.

They also had a bunch of fully functional Arri 16s's on a shelf for decoration.



Wow, so please give me their contact :P

Maybe they might have any, who know?

Thanks,
Flavio
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#6 Will Montgomery

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Posted 24 May 2011 - 09:33 AM

So do you have like a Cine 60 belt with banana plugs, 4-pin XLR and 3-pin XLR?

What connection does your motor have? Two male banana plugs, one thicker and one thinner or both the same thickness?

I've only had the 35mm motors but they were built around the same time and seem to need the same 16.8 volts so I figured the connections were similar...

EDIT: VOLTAGE IS 16.8 not 12.8
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#7 flavio filho

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Posted 24 May 2011 - 01:04 PM

So do you have like a Cine 60 belt with banana plugs, 4-pin XLR and 3-pin XLR?

What connection does your motor have? Two male banana plugs, one thicker and one thinner or both the same thickness?

I've only had the 35mm motors but they were built around the same time and seem to need the same 12.8 volts so I figured the connections were similar...



Hi Will

Thanks loads.

My cameras have that 2 pin in the back, but they're both SAME thickness.
The belt battery doesn't not have a cable, that's the problem so I have no cable to try on it.

The 2 pin plug in the back of the camera is a "rectangle" whole that has aprox. 26mm X 13mm, maybe 15mm deep...

That makes it a bit different from another post I saw of a guy that showed me his cable in pictures, that had indeed female banana plugs of different tickness,

What are you thinking about?
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#8 Will Montgomery

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 09:10 AM

The 2 pin plug in the back of the camera is a "rectangle" whole that has aprox. 26mm X 13mm, maybe 15mm deep...

I have one cable that seems to match your description but unfortunately I need it for the one motor I have that has matching thickness polls. The only ones I see online are the thin and thick poles.

Try calling up rental houses around the country, like AbelCine (advertiser here) and ask if they have one laying around. It should sell for about $75. Lots of those places have sold off their Arri 16s and 2Cs years ago but might have an old box of cables in the basement where the cable you're looking for lives.
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#9 flavio filho

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 09:57 AM

I have one cable that seems to match your description but unfortunately I need it for the one motor I have that has matching thickness polls. The only ones I see online are the thin and thick poles.

Try calling up rental houses around the country, like AbelCine (advertiser here) and ask if they have one laying around. It should sell for about $75. Lots of those places have sold off their Arri 16s and 2Cs years ago but might have an old box of cables in the basement where the cable you're looking for lives.



HI Will.

Thanks for your answer.

I'm trying to reach rental houses, etc. but none has them. Some still sell this for £75, but I think it's absurd.
All I need is to find where to buy a similar plug liek that end... Then I can build one cable myself.

Any idea of a similar plug on the market that I could buy?
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#10 flavio filho

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 01:24 PM

So do you have like a Cine 60 belt with banana plugs, 4-pin XLR and 3-pin XLR?

What connection does your motor have? Two male banana plugs, one thicker and one thinner or both the same thickness?

I've only had the 35mm motors but they were built around the same time and seem to need the same 16.8 volts so I figured the connections were similar...

EDIT: VOLTAGE IS 16.8 not 12.8



Hi WIll!

My apologies.

Looking the connection on my camera REALLY close (and with glasses) the 2 pin connector behing the camera are actually one ticker than the other.
So. THe other guy that posted me his cable's pictures was actually the right cable.

Anyway, thanks loads.

In the search, will get there.

Best,
Flavio
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#11 Will Montgomery

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 01:45 PM

In the search, will get there.

Check out this company. Back in the day they were the go-to guys for Arri power.

http://www.cine60ny.com/
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#12 flavio filho

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Posted 25 May 2011 - 02:34 PM

Ok, guys, thanks so far for all your help.
I've managed to find TWO Arri 16s cables, that has one end to the MAINS (that big two pin mains...)

THe seller told me that:
Both cables fit into the body of the Arriflex S
One cable has the back port for the Take-up motor. The other don't.

BUT.. he couldn't answer me if he reckons I'd be able to stick an XLR on the end of both cables to stick them to my 12V battery.

MY QUESTION: What do you guys think? Such cable would work? THey're both original Arri cables... And since goes to the mains (that is 2-core), I believe it woudl work well to stick to a BATTERY, wouldn't it? As the battery cable also is a 2-core cable?

Any HELP, TIPS, ANYTHING would help me to decide if I buy them and risk to convert the cables.

Thanks!

Flavio

Edited by flavio filho, 25 May 2011 - 02:38 PM.

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#13 Ian Cooper

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 01:26 AM

Ok, guys, thanks so far for all your help.
I've managed to find TWO Arri 16s cables, that has one end to the MAINS (that big two pin mains...)

THe seller told me that:
Both cables fit into the body of the Arriflex S
One cable has the back port for the Take-up motor. The other don't.

BUT.. he couldn't answer me if he reckons I'd be able to stick an XLR on the end of both cables to stick them to my 12V battery.

MY QUESTION: What do you guys think? Such cable would work? THey're both original Arri cables... And since goes to the mains (that is 2-core), I believe it woudl work well to stick to a BATTERY, wouldn't it? As the battery cable also is a 2-core cable?

Any HELP, TIPS, ANYTHING would help me to decide if I buy them and risk to convert the cables.

Thanks!

Flavio


So long as the motor connector will fit your motor, that's all you are interested in. You can soon replace the connector at the other end with what ever you want to put on there: XLR/croc. clips/direct to battery.
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#14 flavio filho

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 03:47 AM

So long as the motor connector will fit your motor, that's all you are interested in. You can soon replace the connector at the other end with what ever you want to put on there: XLR/croc. clips/direct to battery.



Great, thanks loads Ian.
Now will have one Cable that works to use the mags and the other that doesn't.

Now, my question is... in oder to make this other end work.... To solder as you said in anotherpost, should I worry about WHICH WIRE of the cable to solder in WHICH terminal of the XLR?
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#15 flavio filho

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 04:01 AM

I mean, how to (if I have to) find WHICH of the wires is which of the poles to connect where? :P
Argh!

Edited by flavio filho, 26 May 2011 - 04:02 AM.

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#16 Ian Cooper

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 07:49 AM

I mean, how to (if I have to) find WHICH of the wires is which of the poles to connect where? :P
Argh!


The arri motor connector appears to be moulded on the end of the cable, so opening it up to see which wire goes where is probably difficult. In the absence of that you have two choices - the technical way to check using a test meter of some sort (even just a battery, bulb & wire), or the 'suck it and see' approach!

Reference to the TM-23 manual shows that no harm will come to the motor if you connect it up wrong. see here. On that basis you should remove the motor from the camera (so there is no risk of damage to the camera), then connect the two leads to a battery with the speed control knob set mid-range. If the motor either doesn't turn at all, or runs off at maximum speed then you've got the wires the wrong way round! Swap them over and it should work properly!

Note, whilst your motor runs at 12V, unless it has been modified the torque motor for the magazine doesn't want more than 8V else it will be damaged.
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#17 flavio filho

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 08:07 AM

The arri motor connector appears to be moulded on the end of the cable, so opening it up to see which wire goes where is probably difficult. In the absence of that you have two choices - the technical way to check using a test meter of some sort (even just a battery, bulb & wire), or the 'suck it and see' approach!

Reference to the TM-23 manual shows that no harm will come to the motor if you connect it up wrong. see here. On that basis you should remove the motor from the camera (so there is no risk of damage to the camera), then connect the two leads to a battery with the speed control knob set mid-range. If the motor either doesn't turn at all, or runs off at maximum speed then you've got the wires the wrong way round! Swap them over and it should work properly!

Note, whilst your motor runs at 12V, unless it has been modified the torque motor for the magazine doesn't want more than 8V else it will be damaged.



Thanks again Ian.

Will wait the cables to arrive and try.

Ok, so even changing it, that won't damage the Tobin motor...
But what about the standard arri motor? I have one of this (8V) as well. :P

Edited by flavio filho, 26 May 2011 - 08:07 AM.

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#18 Ian Cooper

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 09:52 AM

Ok, so even changing it, that won't damage the Tobin motor...
But what about the standard arri motor? I have one of this (8V) as well. :P


Sorry, no experience. I dunno if the camera user guide tells you?

From a practical stand point I would expect the Tobin motor connector to be the same polarity as the standard Arri motor, so customers could swap motors whilst still using the same lead. On that basis you can try a suck-and-see approach with the Tobin motor then fairly safely assume it will be the same for the Arri (just I wouldn't recommend connecting the Arri 8V motor to a 12V battery). Either way, I would recommend testing with the motor removed from the camera to start with so you don't risk damaging the camera mechanism by running at full speed without film in (or finding it running at max. speed backwards!)

If you have access to a test meter (even an cheap £10 special from screw-fix would do) then you can use the Tobin instructions I linked to earlier to tell you which terminal on the motor is which.
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#19 Charlie Peich

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 02:49 PM

Thanks again Ian.

Will wait the cables to arrive and try.

Ok, so even changing it, that won't damage the Tobin motor...
But what about the standard arri motor? I have one of this (8V) as well. :P


Flavio,

1st, your cables should be wired with the correct polarity to the camera. Looking at the back of the camera at the battery cable socket,

the positive side is on the left, or the larger of the 2 pins.

Posted Image



The Arri cable shows which side the positive is on. It's pretty simple. The way the cable is made for the Arri 16 S/B, there is no way to reverse the polarity when it's plugged in.

Posted Image


What is important however is, the cable has to be wired to the correct pins in the connector on your battery.

If all the above is proper, it won't matter if a Arri 8 volt "Variable Speed Motor" or Tobin 12 volt motor is used, the polarity is correct for both.

Of the Arri 8 volt motors, only the WILD or Variable Speed Motor motor can be run on 12 volts. I have done that with mine. It's a simple, but tough motor without any sophisticated electronics to control the speed. You just rotate the rheostat on the back to set your frame rate while viewing the tachometer. When you shut the motor off, you may have to inch the the camera by hand to close the mirror shutter to view through the lens.

Any of the other Arri 8 volt motors will not take the 12 volts, the popular Governor-controlled Motor that runs at 24 fps (there was a 16 fps version) is one that won't take 12 volts.

From a 1969 instruction book:

Posted Image






Posted Image


Posted Image


Posted Image



I was looking at a catalog for the earlier Arriflex 16 camera, not the 16 S/B, and the battery cable socket shown is different from the 16 S/B which I have. This view shows the camera without the cable lock as I show above. The polarity would still be the same. Apparently, the cable kept getting pulled out or falling out (if the pins weren't tight) while shooting, so Arri designed the cable lock. I'm not sure where in the serial numbers they added the lock, or if it was introduced with the S/B model. This could cause some confusion about cables.

The pins need to be carefully separated periodically to insure a tight fit and good electrical contact. Too much pressure, or too big of a screwdriver, you'll break one side off.

The Arri 35 camera motors had no cable lock, one just made sure the pins fit tightly.


Posted Image


Posted Image

Is that the version you have? As I have no experience with that model, I'm not sure what Arri did to keep the polarity correct. It could have been done with 2 sizes of pins.

I have a 35-2 A with the wild motor (part of camera collection and display only), and the pins are the same size. I don't have that much experience with the older models.


Posted Image





The only thing that needs changing when using 12 volts and the Tobin motor is the 8 volt torque motor on the external magazine should you use one. Several voltage reducing resistors have to be installed. Tobin converted mine. It's not a simple in line voltage dropping resistor.

At the end of Arri's run with the 16 S/B, Arri had converted the system to 12 volts. They offered a 12 volt Xtal motor, 12 volt Variable Speed and Governor Controlled motors, and sold the torque motors converted to 12 volts.

Charlie
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#20 flavio filho

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Posted 02 June 2011 - 01:22 PM

Hi Charlie!

Wow, thanks loads for all tips and clarifying.
Will have to read some parts again to get all the picture though. :P

YES, both my Arris 16s have two different size pins.
One has the locker, other doesn't.

My intent is to convert all to 12V. I have 4 mags.
Will have to sort someone in UK to do it, but for a fair price. Short of money, just by buying both cameras I broke for 2 weeks. :huh:

And still have to buy a WILD CRYSTAL MOTOR, but hard, hard to find a Tobin one...

ANYWAY, it's life, ain't it?
Still a long way to put them ON and READY.

Will read all again and see my case how it goes.
Have to find how to solder the right wire to the right XLR connector hole...

Thanks, man!

Flavio
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