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Bolex TXM-11 23.976, TXM-24V & Others


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#1 flavio filho

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 02:03 PM

HI.

Looking for a Crystal Controller for my Bolex EL.
Have seen these two Tobin ones, TXM-11 23.976 and TXM-24V.

I wonder if these would be great ones, OR not, OR there is some OTHER good ones?

Any experience or recommendation would be wicked.

Thanks,
F
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#2 Ian Cooper

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 03:03 PM

Looking for a Crystal Controller for my Bolex EL.
Have seen these two Tobin ones, TXM-11 23.976 and TXM-24V.

I wonder if these would be great ones, OR not, OR there is some OTHER good ones?


If you're in the UK ;) , then I'd either go for a 25fps crystal sync if you're planning to have your film telecined to view on TV, or 24fps if you're planning to have your film blown-up to 35mm and projected in sync with sound, or digitally projected at a cinema.

Unless you're going to have your film telecined to NTSC to be viewed in America, I'd forget about 23.976fps.
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#3 flavio filho

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 03:59 PM

If you're in the UK ;) , then I'd either go for a 25fps crystal sync if you're planning to have your film telecined to view on TV, or 24fps if you're planning to have your film blown-up to 35mm and projected in sync with sound, or digitally projected at a cinema.

Unless you're going to have your film telecined to NTSC to be viewed in America, I'd forget about 23.976fps.



Hi.

Yeah, I thought about that....

I'd buy it to be used for FILM, so 24FPS would be the ideal. But 23.976fps would still be possible to be telecined, isn't it? I mean, to be blown up to 35mm as well as HD Video?

24FPS would be better to have cause opens more WAYS to be used in FILM/DIGITAL? Mean in terms of being used for both USA and EUROPE?

Edited by flavio filho, 22 June 2011 - 03:59 PM.

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#4 Ian Cooper

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 04:37 PM

Hi.

Yeah, I thought about that....

I'd buy it to be used for FILM, so 24FPS would be the ideal. But 23.976fps would still be possible to be telecined, isn't it? I mean, to be blown up to 35mm as well as HD Video?

24FPS would be better to have cause opens more WAYS to be used in FILM/DIGITAL? Mean in terms of being used for both USA and EUROPE?


As I say, if you're in europe (PAL land), then I'd stick to either 25fps or 24fps. Your life will be a lot easier if/when you have your film telecined or scanned and want to sync the sound up again. If you're in NTSC land, then you'll want 23.976fps (or 24fps).

Countless dramas shot on film in the UK for TV (at 25fps) have been sold and played all around the world. Countless films (shot at 24fps) have been sold and played all around the world in cinemas, on PAL and on NTSC. Countless American TV series' have been shot on film (24.976fps) and then sold around the world and seen on PAL. Anything is possible, it just costs money. How big is your budget for standards conversion between formats? How big is your budget for post production adjustments to compensate between formats? How and where do you realistically see your films being viewed?



You are of course entitled to film at what ever speed you like. I simply suggest that if you are in Europe then the simplest, least hassle (and thus cheapest) crystal sync speeds are either 25fps (for compatibility with PAL) or 24fps (for compatibility with theatrical projection). 24.976fps is used for compatibility with NTSC (eg. America).

If you wish to see your work projected then shoot at 24fps.
If you wish to see your work on TV in Europe (either standard or high definition) then it is probably easiest to shoot at 25fps.
If you wish to see your work on TV in America, shoot at 23.976 fps.
If you don't know what you want, then shoot at 24fps.

If you wish to do your own thing - feel free.
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#5 flavio filho

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 05:01 PM

...(for compatibility with theatrical projection). 24.976fps is used for compatibility with NTSC (eg. America).

If you wish to see your work projected then shoot at 24fps.



Wow.

Thanks again, Ian.
Sure, I want to work on short films, so 24fps would be...

In the above underline you meant 23.976, right?
Just checking.

Thanks, again!
F
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#6 Ian Cooper

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Posted 23 June 2011 - 01:24 AM

In the above underline you meant 23.976, right?
Just checking.


yeah - that'd be the one! :lol:
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#7 Chris Millar

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Posted 23 June 2011 - 04:58 AM

HI.

Looking for a Crystal Controller for my Bolex EL.
Have seen these two Tobin ones, TXM-11 23.976 and TXM-24V.

I wonder if these would be great ones, OR not, OR there is some OTHER good ones?

Any experience or recommendation would be wicked.

Thanks,
F


So we'll take it your EL is actually fine ?

Posted Image Posted Image

Next on the list of questions you'll need to be asking on your way to sync sound on that EL is how you're going to blimp the dang thing...
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#8 Chris Millar

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Posted 23 June 2011 - 05:01 AM

should have mentioned that I've used both Tobin sync units and they are both great products, they just work, so not much to say really - one is plastic and therefore easier to tape to your camera (less weight) - the other is cast and therefore not so prone to many types of damage...

Get whichever comes up first
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#9 flavio filho

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Posted 23 June 2011 - 08:20 AM

yeah - that'd be the one! :lol:



Cool.


So... is there any difference when u mention 23.976 and 24?
Just to be sure. I know many Digital Cameras u can set to 24fps...

But I saw controllers with both 24fps and 23.976.
Should I bother to choose between them when I find one of each?
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#10 flavio filho

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Posted 24 June 2011 - 05:06 PM

So we'll take it your EL is actually fine ?

Posted Image Posted Image

Next on the list of questions you'll need to be asking on your way to sync sound on that EL is how you're going to blimp the dang thing...



HI.

To be honest, I don't know yet.
I have a camera stuck in USA, and need to find someone else to convert it to Ultra.

Any ideas who?
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#11 Chris Millar

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Posted 24 June 2011 - 06:47 PM

HI.

To be honest, I don't know yet.
I have a camera stuck in USA, and need to find someone else to convert it to Ultra.

Any ideas who?


Me.

Done a proper and complete super16 on the EL - ultra shouldn't be an issue

But I'm in the southern hemisphere ....
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#12 flavio filho

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Posted 25 June 2011 - 06:23 AM

Me.

Done a proper and complete super16 on the EL - ultra shouldn't be an issue

But I'm in the southern hemisphere ....



Super 16mm? That's great. RE-centering lens must've been a pain...

Whereabouts u are on the South Hemisphere? Unfortunately I have a couple of weeks to decide to convert it in USA or not. A friend is coming from there by then and he will bring it to me converted or no.

So, If I decide not to convert, I'll probably do myself (am brave...) as I'm an Industrial Designer and have some experiences on dealing with small screws and odd pieces.
An my wife is a jeweller. All the tools I'll need are probably here.

Chris... would you give me a hand on this through cinematography.com? I can take pictures of the step-by-step, and we post it here?
At least for Bolex, FOR THOSE "MORE SKILLED" WHO WANT TO TRY, they can end by doing the so dreamed Ultra 16mm conversion on their Bolexes. And save at least $500 B)

It would help loads the students (like me).
It's good to post also contact emails of places who sell BOLEX GATE PARTS :P

Anyway, let me know, Chris. And thanks loads for your valuable help.

Flavio
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#13 flavio filho

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Posted 25 June 2011 - 06:35 AM

If you're in the UK ;) , then I'd either go for a 25fps crystal sync if you're planning to have your film telecined to view on TV, or 24fps if you're planning to have your film blown-up to 35mm and projected in sync with sound, or digitally projected at a cinema.

Unless you're going to have your film telecined to NTSC to be viewed in America, I'd forget about 23.976fps.



Ok, Ian... To conclude this post:

- If I choose the 23.976 to make my Bolex Crystal Sync at "24fps" if I want to use primarily for film I', ok.
- OR... there is another Tobin Model that locks at 24/25 fps. Its possible to choose... This one, yes, seems to be the best choice so far I've found... Works for both Europe and USA... And is made by Tobin.

Thanks,
F

Edited by flavio filho, 25 June 2011 - 06:38 AM.

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#14 Ian Cooper

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 03:27 AM

- If I choose the 23.976 to make my Bolex Crystal Sync at "24fps" if I want to use primarily for film I', ok.



As stated, 23.976fps is NOT crystal sync at 24fps.
23.976fps is the speed at which film is telecined to NTSC format television. If you don't intend to telecine to NTSC then there seems little point in choosing this option.


- OR... there is another Tobin Model that locks at 24/25 fps. Its possible to choose... This one, yes, seems to be the best choice so far I've found... Works for both Europe and USA... And is made by Tobin.


If you are based in Europe then running crystal sync at 24 or 25fps makes most sense - depending what your intended viewing mechanism is. If you can get a sync module capable of both then that is obvioulsy the ideal situation.
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#15 Chris Millar

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 05:37 AM

Super 16mm? That's great. RE-centering lens must've been a pain...

Whereabouts u are on the South Hemisphere? Unfortunately I have a couple of weeks to decide to convert it in USA or not. A friend is coming from there by then and he will bring it to me converted or no.

So, If I decide not to convert, I'll probably do myself (am brave...) as I'm an Industrial Designer and have some experiences on dealing with small screws and odd pieces.
An my wife is a jeweller. All the tools I'll need are probably here.

Chris... would you give me a hand on this through cinematography.com? I can take pictures of the step-by-step, and we post it here?
At least for Bolex, FOR THOSE "MORE SKILLED" WHO WANT TO TRY, they can end by doing the so dreamed Ultra 16mm conversion on their Bolexes. And save at least $500 B)

It would help loads the students (like me).
It's good to post also contact emails of places who sell BOLEX GATE PARTS :P

Anyway, let me know, Chris. And thanks loads for your valuable help.

Flavio




Lens recentre wasn't too bad - they are built in such a way that to get to the fasteners for the gate you have to get in so far that all the lens mounting carry on is all pulled apart anyway, its basically just slotting some holes and shaving/milling a bit off some other bits so it fits nicely again (or leaving those bits off)

The really hard/fiddly/annoying part is organising/designing a method for making a new mask and extended viewfinder - but of course, now that I've done it twice its easy Posted Image.

But with ultra the recenter doesn't need to happen and I'm not sure if the prism has enough 'space' to project the new wider frame anyway - you're going to have issues with coverage with the wider lenses (and the wider ends of the zooms)

There is also the very delicate light meter mechanism to workaround - I can imagine a few first time EL openers fluffing that up... I was lucky enough to not ruin it in my experiments

Hmmmm, thing is I did it years ago, took no photos of the procedure, and upon sober reflection am too busy for this kind of carry on unless I charged top dollar and could do it nearer the end of the year (thinking of returning to university to complete an engineering degree so I get the student thing!)

Oh yeh, best source for the newer alloy gates and sprocket rollers and so on (that fit the EL) are the security style non-RX bolex oddballs you find on ebay sometimes for $20 - but dont tell anyone else I told you that Posted Image

What sort of tools do you have on hand ?

People will tell you you need a lathe, you don't - but you do need a mill
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#16 flavio filho

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 07:17 AM

Hm, Ok, thanks for the tips anyway.
But what do you mean by:

Oh yeh, best source for the newer alloy gates and sprocket rollers and so on (that fit the EL) are the security style non-RX bolex oddballs you find on ebay sometimes for $20 - but dont tell anyone else I told you that


I have all sorts of pliers, small screwdrivers and I do have a mill.
If you don't mind send me pictures and some tips when u have time on my email (will send you by message) that'd be great.
I can chase for everything is needed, buy what I don't have, and go for it.

Then I can write my experience here after for those who will try might find useful info.

Let me know, thanks loads!!

F

Edited by flavio filho, 26 June 2011 - 07:19 AM.

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#17 Chris Millar

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 02:43 AM

Hm, Ok, thanks for the tips anyway.
But what do you mean ...


I was replying to: "It's good to post also contact emails of places who sell BOLEX GATE PARTS :P"



Photos wont happen, just too busy with work ... sorry!


I could only do a conversion or any carry on that way as a paid job and only perhaps at the end of the year.


You could take photos of where you're up to and I could draw on them to tell you hints/advice on what to do next - of course this method is fraught with complication and potential misunderstanding ...


Have a read here: http://www.sci.fi/~a...to/s16/s16.html


Of course its for a different camera so some bits will be harder, but can also say he does some things in a more complex way that I managed so maybe it balances out in the end ...
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