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Knots! Essential knots to know?


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#1 Dillon C Novak

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Posted 24 June 2011 - 12:16 PM

The knot that I have used a lot is the "single bow". I use it on almost everything from fasting a stinger that has been wrapped, or an easy to remove knots for silks/solids on speed rail.

What other knots are important. I would really like to know some that are good for heavy duty fastening when grounding a 12x frame.

Thanks guys!
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#2 Onno Perdijk

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Posted 24 June 2011 - 04:07 PM

http://www.animatedk...ckers/index.php

truckers hitch
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#3 Chris Millar

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Posted 24 June 2011 - 04:29 PM

Clove hitch
bowline

Actually it's not so much the knots you know but how and when you apply them around the myriad objects you have to deal with as a grip.

We were hoisting up apple boxes full with scaf clips a while ago when I reslised the knot we were using to both lift and keep them horizontal was just a bowline, but was applied in a special way that made it look much more elaborate than it was.

And yeh second on truckers hitch.
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#4 John David Miller

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Posted 24 June 2011 - 08:14 PM

Tieing up overheads to frames should be done with the same knot you use to tie your shoelace.

A clove hitch and bowline are two knots you will be using constantly. Know them well. Know how to tie them with your eyes closed, while upside down, hands behind your back, with someone beating you on the head with a gel core.

A Lighterman's Hitch with two half hitches is a knot we use to tie off to the handrail on catwalks. It is important you get good at working with this knot. Learn how to tie off without losing the height...this will frustrate a Key Grip when he tells you to lock it off and it sags because your are inept with this knot.

A truckers hitch or a knot with similar results is important as well.

A few other situational knots that are good to learn are:

Sheet Bend for joining unequal size ropes.
Sqaure Knot joins equal size rope
Cleat Hitch for tieing off to a cleat
Cow Hitch for replacing the ties on overheads
Prusik Knot a knot that wont slide
Crown Sinnet to make a nice handle on your matte knife
Windsor Knot for an interview to become a bigtime hollywood Key.
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#5 Dillon C Novak

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Posted 24 June 2011 - 08:51 PM

Tieing up overheads to frames should be done with the same knot you use to tie your shoelace.

A clove hitch and bowline are two knots you will be using constantly. Know them well. Know how to tie them with your eyes closed, while upside down, hands behind your back, with someone beating you on the head with a gel core.

A Lighterman's Hitch with two half hitches is a knot we use to tie off to the handrail on catwalks. It is important you get good at working with this knot. Learn how to tie off without losing the height...this will frustrate a Key Grip when he tells you to lock it off and it sags because your are inept with this knot.

A truckers hitch or a knot with similar results is important as well.

A few other situational knots that are good to learn are:

Sheet Bend for joining unequal size ropes.
Sqaure Knot joins equal size rope
Cleat Hitch for tieing off to a cleat
Cow Hitch for replacing the ties on overheads
Prusik Knot a knot that wont slide
Crown Sinnet to make a nice handle on your matte knife
Windsor Knot for an interview to become a bigtime hollywood Key.




This was VERY helpful. I liked the applications, especially the last one.

Edited by Dillon C Novak, 24 June 2011 - 08:52 PM.

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#6 John David Miller

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Posted 24 June 2011 - 09:09 PM

Knots should be taken VERY seriously as a grip. These knots are keeping people safe from harm. You will be hanging heavy objects over the heads of people that are trusting you with their lives. Please do not be careless with this responcibility. There is no shame in asking for help or having a buddy double check your work. Good luck.
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#7 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 24 June 2011 - 09:58 PM

When I was very young and practically gushing behind the ears, I was foolishly entrusted with rigging a 4x4ft kino-flo about a foot above someone's head. Both I and he will forever be thankful it wasn't further, because the mounting and dumped the thing on his head. While the first-aider attempted to stem the flow of blood, I went away and rocked in a corner for a while, horrified at what I'd done.

I'm not sure how preventable it was - it didn't break at a point I'd rigged and I was in the process of rigging a safety when it failed. Probably we shouldn't have allowed people to work underneath us, but of course that's incredibly difficult to enforce. Still, that will forever be my personal yellow card moment as regards overhead rigging, and with any luck it will remain the closest I've ever come to seriously damaging someone.

To drag the thread back on topic (sorry about that), I'm not sure I'd want to be reliant on my knowledge of knots to avoid that sort of thing happening again. Shouldn't there be a better way, especially in safety-critical situations?

P
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#8 Chris Millar

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Posted 24 June 2011 - 10:15 PM

The one know I love but have never yet managed to find an essential use for aside from showing it to people is the:

http://notableknotin...umblehitch.html

One line can bear a load, whilst the other releases the rope from the now inaccessible point (raised truss/grid, thingy, etc...)

Those know manuals really fail to show you many real world applications though, just ideal situations
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#9 John David Miller

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Posted 24 June 2011 - 10:26 PM

Unfortunatly this is the best way to hang things (in many circumstances). Using equipment that does not require knots becomes even more critical that knowledge/experience is present.

Hanging chain motors, using spansets, and winches require no knots but are very dangerous. If a self proclaimed "grip" can't tie proper knots, I wouldn't have him hanging motors.

I just brought a new guy onto my crew who knew nothing about knots. His job was to shag sandbags all day everyday until he learned his knots. He learned very fast. He is 1 year into the business and I still double check his work. That is my responcibility as a Key or BB, to know the abilities of myself and my crew members.

Personally, when I tie a knot my muscle memory takes over and my thoughts are on something else. After my hands go through the motions I look down and give it a visual inspection. You can take one look at almost any knot and know if it is tied wrong. Is it a perfect system, no...but that is what I like about it. Pefect rarely is.
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#10 Chris Millar

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Posted 25 June 2011 - 12:17 AM

Hanging chain motors, using spansets, and winches require no knots

If you hang them motor down you've got to get the chain up somehow - often we see the hook around a bowline ... Much better is a clove hitch (checked tight) around the chain itself around a foot or so from the chain hook, that way if you can use the point (if there is nothing more appropriate) as a lifting diversion with a bit of helpful friction, once the hitch is at the point level (shackle etc..) the hook is sitting there with a foots excess under no tension ...


Like most if not all overhead situations, best way to make sure nothing falls on anyone is that you get people the **(obscenity removed)** away from under the damn stuff...

Rigging advice on the net - what will they think of next Posted Image
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#11 John David Miller

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Posted 25 June 2011 - 01:26 AM

If you hang them motor down you've got to get the chain up somehow


A condor or sissorlift is a quick way to hang motors if budget allows.
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#12 Chris Millar

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Posted 25 June 2011 - 01:55 AM

A condor or sissorlift is a quick way to hang motors if budget allows.


hmmm, yeh - totally true ... its good though to know the rope work in those instances where they are the only way to go
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#13 John David Miller

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Posted 25 June 2011 - 02:43 AM

I wouldn't let a guy do anything more than shag sandbags and clean gear until I knew he has his knots down. It is grip 101.
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#14 Dillon C Novak

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Posted 25 June 2011 - 02:47 PM

What applications would the clove hitch be used for? Thanks again for all of the useful info guys.
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#15 Dillon C Novak

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Posted 25 June 2011 - 02:57 PM

As well as the bow hitch. You mentioned at the top that they would be used the most. I learned them both and was wondering the most practical uses for those two knots.

Thanks!
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#16 John David Miller

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Posted 25 June 2011 - 03:07 PM

To "dead end" something tightly. For example, a pipe you want to hang. A clove is preferred over a bowline because the pipe will slide freely inside the loop of a bowline if the pipe becomes off level.

For example, while hanging a lighting trapeze a bowline is uses around the ring to hang it.
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#17 Michael E Brown

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 10:23 PM

To "dead end" something tightly. For example, a pipe you want to hang. A clove is preferred over a bowline because the pipe will slide freely inside the loop of a bowline if the pipe becomes off level.

For example, while hanging a lighting trapeze a bowline is uses around the ring to hang it.


The best use for a clove hitch is as an example of a knot never to trust with anything serious. I race sailboats, so I am lucky to have known my knots before getting into the grippage world. When you have several thousand pounds of pressure on a line, you best know your knots when you need to secure it. While a clove hitch (which is basically two half hitches) is indeed easy to tie a dead end off with tightly, it also slips easily meaning that something isn't tight anymore. It can also come completely undone if the load is applied/unapplied. If you outsmart the knot by adding a half hitch or two at the end to better secure it, then you are just asking the knot to bind up where you have a devil of a time removing it. Clove hitches are best left for tying fenders to the rail - in which case it's excellent because it's super easy to roll around and adjust the length. A better choice for other uses would be a simple round turn and two half hitches. You can also tie the round turn/two half hitches "in a bight", meaning you don't have to use the dead end of the rope if you have, for example, 30' of rope left - very handy when tying off overheads, etc. To really secure it, tie a third half hitch.

When using unfamiliar rope, you should also note the suitability of the rope to hold a knot before you hang something heavy with it. Many of the fancy pants ropes we use on boats now would be a very poor choice for basic grip usage. Some of the 3/8" ropes we use are rated at almost 15,000 lbs (breaking) but only perhaps a 1/10 of that in knot holding strength. They are just too slippery and must be spliced at one end and held with rope clutches at the other. On the flip side, cheapo 3/8" braided rope from the hardware store probably has a breaking point of 1500lbs or so BUT also about 10% stretch. I have seen many overheads tied off with cheapo rope and the resulting people scratching their heads wondering how the wind managed to lift the frame another 5ft off the ground when it's tied off tight.
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#18 John David Miller

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 12:19 AM

I have to agree that the clove hitch is not a great knot. There are several other knots that are far superior for any given application. It is just a simple knot to tie/untie, to teach, to tell if you've mistied it, to remember.

We usually do not use rope to hang anything of serious weight. Anything a man could not comfortably lift is put on a motor, winch, arbor, or block/fall. You see a lot of people add wraps to a clove to prevent sliding or actually mouse up the knot with tape. Until recently people would weave the tail of the clove hitch up through the load-bearing line greatly reducing the tensile strength. Now we don't even carry manilla rope on the truck anymore.

Even though I have never had a clove hitch fail under any circumstance, I agree the world of gripping should employ the use of better knots.

Edited by John David Miller, 27 June 2011 - 12:21 AM.

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#19 John Sprung

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 07:08 PM

What other knots are important.


Get The Ashley Book of Knots, learn the Magnus Hitch and the Constrictor in addition to all that's mentioned above.



-- J.S.
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