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16mm in the $500 to $700


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#1 Rick Cook

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 10:16 PM

Hey There!

I am doing some research, and would appreciate any input you guys have.

I sold some old gear I had been sitting on for a while, and was able to pick up around $800 for it all. So I was thinking of putting it towards a nice affordable 16mm camera.
I've considered the k3. But I feel like I could do better then that within the range of $500-700. Range. Is there a decent camera (pref. One that has a motor) that anyone could point me towards?

I've watched a couple Kinor's on ebay, but all are mostly "untested".
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#2 Matthew W. Phillips

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Posted 10 July 2011 - 10:25 PM

There is a CP-16R on ebay right now for buy it now $575. The only thing that is wrong with it is that the trigger switch doesnt work and it runs constantly when the button on the back is turned on. So you basically use the rear switch as the trigger. Its a great deal and if you dont buy it, I will next week.

CP-16R has 24fps crystal sync motor, 2 400' magazines, and an interchangable lens setup. Doesnt get any better than that for this price range.
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#3 Will Montgomery

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 12:08 AM

Much depends on how and what you want to shoot. Having owned about 10 different low to mid-range 16mm cameras I can tell you that for me, ease of use is really important.

I've had a K3 and was lucky to get a good one. Take great shots and there are plenty of M42 mount lenses out there to try. Problem with that camera is the winding...I was always missing a shot while I wound the thing.

Kodak K-100 is a good camera too but no through-the-lens focusing; the wind lasts a very long time, more than a K3 for sure.

CP-16R is great if you have time to setup a shot and is a much more professional camera.

If you're running around and need to load film quickly, nothing beats a Scoopic. One of the newer ones, the M, MN or MS. They have great lenses and are the fastest loading cameras I've ever had. A Scoopic MS usually goes for about $600. Built-in meter works great for most uses.
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#4 Brian Drysdale

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 01:30 AM

CP-16R is great if you have time to setup a shot and is a much more professional camera.


I'm not sure how you need more time to set up a shot with a CP 16R, they were news cameras and are quick to use. The slowest part is having to thread the camera (this does need practise to get up to speed), but it does take 400ft loads, so you need to do it less often. However, I suspect at the price mentioned there may not be a lens included.
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#5 Phil Thompson

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 02:25 AM

There is a CP-16R on ebay right now for buy it now $575. The only thing that is wrong with it is that the trigger switch doesnt work and it runs constantly when the button on the back is turned on. So you basically use the rear switch as the trigger. Its a great deal and if you dont buy it, I will next week.

CP-16R has 24fps crystal sync motor, 2 400' magazines, and an interchangable lens setup. Doesnt get any better than that for this price range.


if u do you're a fool. If that switch doesn;t work then the hybrid board id burnt out. YOu cant replace that,
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#6 Matthew W. Phillips

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 03:52 AM

Thanks for the pointer, I guess. But I would appreciate it if you wouldn't insult me and call me a fool. Especially since your grammar is suspect and you don't seem like the brightest bulb in the shed yourself. :lol:
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#7 Rick Cook

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 09:52 AM

Thanks guys,

The CP 16 was another one I was looking at, but it was usually in the range of $1500. I'll have to ask someone I know his opinion on fixing it. Do you guys think the trigger is something that ould be fixed?

I have seen the Scoopics, and I don't know much about them.
Something with magazines would be best, and I have no issues with load times, I plan on shooting Short Features for a friend with it.

I'm searching the NYC craigslist, and will report if I find anything interesting for your guys opinions.
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#8 Will Montgomery

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Posted 11 July 2011 - 10:45 AM

Something with magazines would be best, and I have no issues with load times, I plan on shooting Short Features for a friend with it.

If you're shooting a feature then I'd save a little more and look out for an Super 16 Aaton LTR or Arri SR. They are coming down quickly and are more available on eBay then I've ever seen them. Maybe find one with a PL mount and you can rent the best PL lenses reasonably.

Many sub-$1000 cameras will have subtle issues due to a lack of quality that don't always show up but can at really bad times. If you are considering shooting a feature then an Aaton or Arri would be a great investment.

Scoopic MS can add a 400' magazine with a special adapter but if you're going that route I'd suggest the Aaton or Arri. Scoopics really shine as run-n-gun cameras, not quite a german precision instrument like an Arri SR.

You can see some issues here on a Scoopic that had recently been serviced and I've seen this type of pulsing on three different Scoopics.
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#9 Rick Cook

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Posted 14 July 2011 - 09:29 PM

Thanks for the info Will!

I have since borrowed an Arri 16bl from a friend of mine for the feature project. It hasn't been used in years, so we had a battery recelled, and I shot a few 100' rolls through it to do various tests. Hopefully it will come back clean.

It's a shame I can't modify the BL for super 16, as it's not mine, and I hear it is a pain in the ass. So I'm considering buying a scoopic, or something in that realm so I can mess around with it in the future. For now, I'll put the money towards the Film stock.

thanks again!

- Rick
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#10 Dimitar Kutmanov

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 03:32 PM

I would recommend you to stay alert for decent Kinor 16 CX2/3 M packages. Keep checking Ebay, most of the Kinors that you will find are quite battered and rusty with no power supply. However, I got mine with two zoom lenses + a wide-ange adaptor and 2x100ft;2x400ft magazines, battery and cables...and upgraded motor...for $800. The camera is a much more professional alternative to the K3s and the Scoopics...It has a registration claw and registration pin transport mechanism and they say it is mechanically almost identical to the Arri 16 SR...Which means super stable image. Believe me the difference of the image stability between the Kinor and a Bolex or Scoopic is significant. Furthermore it is built like an AK 47. The biggest problem is to find a full kit in decent condition. Good luck ;)
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#11 Gary Lemson

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 03:58 PM

...So I'm considering buying a scoopic...
- Rick


I purchased a refurbed Scoopic earlier this year, and I'm very happy with it. As you probably know, the Scoopic has limited capabilities, but does allow for manual control, and has 72mm threads.
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#12 Gregg MacPherson

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Posted 17 July 2011 - 07:00 PM

Hey There!

I am doing some research, and would appreciate any input you guys have.

I sold some old gear I had been sitting on for a while, and was able to pick up around $800 for it all. So I was thinking of putting it towards a nice affordable 16mm camera.
I've considered the k3. But I feel like I could do better then that within the range of $500-700. Range. Is there a decent camera (pref. One that has a motor) that anyone could point me towards?

I've watched a couple Kinor's on ebay, but all are mostly "untested".


If you're on a budget Eclair ACL's are great cameras. A well maintained ACL is quiet. They are light if you are hand holding a lot. With 200' mags they are really small. They have clip on mags. One feature of them that is really good is the mount adaptor system. You can change the mount adaptor and use any of the common lenses. If you have a PL adaptor you can rent lenses. There are standard 16 ACL's coming up on eBay for around $1000. Some of those will be fine. Some will need a check over and lube.

Cheers
Gregg
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#13 Jason Hinkle (RIP)

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 10:53 AM

But I feel like I could do better then that within the range of $500-700. Range. Is there a decent camera (pref. One that has a motor) that anyone could point me towards?


For that price range I second the ACL. They are good cameras for Super-16 or Ultra-16 conversion as well.
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#14 Matthew W. Phillips

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 01:41 PM

I love this forum but sometimes people just dont listen. The poster said in the range of 500-700. That is what it means. It doesnt mean $1000 or $900 plus glass or any of that. You can always "step up" to something better by inching the price up but we should assume that 500-700 is what the poster is looking for. In that range, I cant imagine you can even consider any working camera package in 16mm outside of K3, Bolex, CP16, or occasionally the Beaulieu R16 on ebay.
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#15 Will Montgomery

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 02:02 PM

I cant imagine you can even consider any working camera package in 16mm outside of K3, Bolex, CP16, or occasionally the Beaulieu R16 on ebay.

And a Scoopic MS.
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#16 Ian Cooper

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 02:05 PM

I love this forum but sometimes people just dont listen. The poster said in the range of 500-700. That is what it means. It doesnt mean $1000 or $900 plus glass or any of that. You can always "step up" to something better by inching the price up but we should assume that 500-700 is what the poster is looking for. In that range, I cant imagine you can even consider any working camera package in 16mm outside of K3, Bolex, CP16, or occasionally the Beaulieu R16 on ebay.


I picked up my Eclair NPR for about £350 from ebay a couple of years ago... which is around $560. I've seen ACL's go unsold with starting bids not much more. I struck lucky with mine as it's clearly led a pretty sheltered life with hardly any scuffs and wear, and after taking it to Les Bosher for a bit of TLC he commented on how good it is as well.

You can pick up good deals, I think my R16 was around the £200 region when I got that in 2008. I can't imagine prices have gone up.
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#17 Gregg MacPherson

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 08:18 PM

I love this forum but sometimes people just dont listen. The poster said in the range of 500-700. That is what it means. It doesnt mean $1000 or $900 plus glass or any of that. You can always "step up" to something better by inching the price up but we should assume that 500-700 is what the poster is looking for. In that range, I cant imagine you can even consider any working camera package in 16mm outside of K3, Bolex, CP16, or occasionally the Beaulieu R16 on ebay.


In defence of my suggesting an ACL, there are some bargains out there. Check this, which sold a couple of days ago. If the seller had been more patient the price would have been higher (maybe twice as much).
http://cgi.ebay.com/...e=STRK:MEWAX:IT

But yes, $100 out of his budget range, and if it needs a lube or any service at all the costs jump. Given that the poster was testing a 16BL and talking about S16 mods for that I felt compelled to pont out ACL's. NPR are also cheap, but I don't know those cameras.

Cheers
Gregg.
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#18 Matthew W. Phillips

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Posted 18 July 2011 - 09:12 PM

That Eclair was close to $200 out of his top price range when shipping is added. I know it is "possible" to obtain an Eclair within that price range but eBay is usually a good indicator of what the "market" will pay for things, at least when people start at a low bidding price, and it is not very common at all to find an Eclair complete kit (mags, lens, body, charger, battery) for $700 or less. In fact, I have never personally seen it.
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#19 Gregg MacPherson

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 12:49 AM

That Eclair was close to $200 out of his top price range when shipping is added. I know it is "possible" to obtain an Eclair within that price range but eBay is usually a good indicator of what the "market" will pay for things, at least when people start at a low bidding price, and it is not very common at all to find an Eclair complete kit (mags, lens, body, charger, battery) for $700 or less. In fact, I have never personally seen it.


Mathew,
One could argue about all this. Shipping costs will apply to any cammera. But I think arguing about whether the suggested cameras fit the price range is not that interesting. My thought, although we don't know anything about the projects, was that shooting features on 16mm with a $700 budget to buy a camera was unrealistic.

Rick,
In the features you want to make is there much hand heldd camera? Find someone in your area with an ACL, or Aaton and see if they will let you have a look. Maybe they will help.

Cheers
Gregg
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#20 Matthew W. Phillips

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 02:36 AM

I am not trying to argue. I just know that if I have a budget to stick to when making a film, and I have to buy a camera out of that budget, the shipping is real money. The fact that all cameras cost shipping is irrelevant. And I have long been a fan of the CP16 camera package because it is by far the best deal for a 16mm production package. Save for some Auricons, there is nothing else even remotely close to the value and versatility you get for the money. But people like to pimp other cameras because it is the accepted thing to do. I dont know why everyone makes such a big deal about the Arri S, for instance. Its an overpriced and loud beast which has a ridiculous setup for trying to do sync sound and 400' mags with. It was never intended for all that but some people get hung up on the name or the fact that RR did Mariachi with it.

The Eclair is a good package but it doesnt have any advantages that I know of over the CP16. It doesnt have a registration pin either so no advantage there. Some say they are quieter but that is debatable.
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