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Canon 514xl-s question?


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#1 Christian Nelson

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Posted 01 August 2011 - 04:17 PM

Hi everyone I am pretty new to super 8 and had a quick question. I shot a roll of Plus-x on my Canon 514xl-s, problem is I didn't disable the daylight filter. I had read that inserting the cartridge would disable it but have since found information that says differently. I am just wondering what having it on would have done to my footage? Any input would be greatly appreciated.
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#2 Richard Tuohy

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Posted 01 August 2011 - 06:57 PM

Hello Christian,
actually you did the right thing. The 514 certainly does have a filter notch pin and as such the plus-x cartridge will have automatically removed the filter. If you had the filter switch on the 'sun' position, then the camera will have exposed plus-x as 100 asa. This is also the correct setting for Ektachrome 100d by the way. If you had put the filter switch to 'bulb', then the camera would still have de-activated the internal filter, but it would also have exposed the film as 160 asa rather than 100. This would be wrong. So you did the right thing.
rt
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#3 Christian Nelson

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Posted 01 August 2011 - 09:58 PM

Ok awesome I was a little confused by differing things I have read. I had the filter switch on the sun position so I should be all good. I have some 100d I am planning on using so that is great to know. What should I do regarding Tri-X? Anywho really appreciate all the help.
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#4 Martin Baumgarten

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Posted 02 August 2011 - 12:24 AM

The CANON 524 XL-S camera is a nice camera, but it has the same metering limitations as many others since it was built around using the former KMA 594 (Kodachrome Sound film ISO 40 Type A/Daylight 25 with Filter) and ELA 594 (Ektachrome Sound film ISO 160 Type A/Daylight ISO 100 with Filter). The film chamber pin which moves the Daylight Filter out of the way, was originally intended for the long discontinued EG 464 (Ektachrome ISO 160 Type G). This film was designed with a lower Daylight Color Temperature so it would produce more acceptable results in mixed lighting situations (thus is really looked lousy in tungsten light alone since it's 4400 Kelvin Color Temp rating still resulted in a very orange image). I have to add all this, since this backfill information isn't always known by many getting into Super 8mm film today.

When KODAK was making the previous PLUS-X 7276 (previous to the now also discontinued PXR 7265), it DID have the Filter Notch. The intent was that those shooting with PLUS-X, which was ASA/ISO 50, would be exposed automatically by most Super 8mm cameras at ASA/ISO 25 WITH the Filter being used. The actual filmspeed with Filter was ASA/ISO 32, but the film latitude being what it is, KODAK stated the film fact sheet that it was quite useable that way (and it was for the most part). Towards the ending couple years of PXR 7276, KODAK for whatever reason didn't always have the Filter Notches cut into the cartridges...this varied from batch to batch...never a clear cut reason; so it must've been in error. Anyhow, TRI-X 7278 and the now TXR 7266 never had the Filter Notch in them. Even with the 'new' B&W Reversal Process using D-94a, TRI-X's filmspeed is still ISO 200.

Back to the camera.....so, if NOT using the Filter, either via switching the knob to the Bulb Lamp symbol for Tungsten.....or using a cartridge that doesn't have the Filter Notch (which neither the last of the PXR 7265 or the still current TXR 7266 don't have), the camera's light meter on the CANON 514 XL-S will rate PLUS-X 7265 as ISO 160, the same as TRI-X 7266. So the film will be underexposed. The only work around for this on this camera is to either have the meter modified so it will read correctly for that film.....or to meter manually via using the Exposure Lock device. Meter the scene.....and knowing that the reading is Under by 2/3 of a Stop, make NOTE of the reading....say for example it's F/11....then aim the camera at something a bit darker until the exposure dial in the viewfinder shows it just a little past F/8, and then lock the lever for the Exposure Lock and film your scene. While bothersome initially, this works quite well and quickly once you get used to it. There is one other way, and that is to have the film processed in either the original B&W Reversal formula so it's at ISO 50 as it once was....or have it PULL processed by the lab so also the effective exposure density will be at ISO 50.

And....lastly.....you can make your own Filter Notch in those PLUS-X or TRI-X cartridges, and take advantage of using the builtin Daylight Conversion filter (originally intended for color films since virtually ALL Super 8mm Color Reversal films were Tungsten). B&W photography or filmmaking should make use of Yellow, Medium Yellow or Orange Filters to render more normal sky and cloud detail, so that there is more correct tonal separation....otherwise sky, water, and some other non-specular hightlights with detail in them don't wash out to white. AND why not use that filter that's already in the camera...it will cut the incoming light down by 2/3rds of an F-Stop helping with filming in bright light situations ( but you'll need a good Neutral Density Filter at times also), and render decent tonal range in your B&W Reversal images. With PLUS-X 7265 though, if you still have more to use.....you'll still have to do the manual exposure method even if using the Filter. However, with TRI-X, the film will be rated at either ISO 160 without the Filter (close enough for most filmmaking to the original ISO 200 speed) or at ISO 100 WITH Filter ( close enough for most filmmaking to the original ISO 130 speed). For finer exposure tuning of course, you can use manual override via the above outlined method on this camera, to control your image density of various subject matter as you see fit.

AND Lastly, using the EKTACHROME 100 D filmstock, without Filter (you don't want to use the filter....unless you want an overall orange color cast for some strange effect...and that would require you to cut a Filter Notch in the cartridge anyhow), the film will be exposed at ISO 160, the same as if shooting with the now discontinued EKTACHROME 160 Type A or G. So, as with the PLUS-X 7265 example above, the film will be UNDER exposed as the camera will close the lens aperture down more as it's exposing the film at ISO 160...NOT ISO 100!!! So, use the Manual Exposure method I outlined above and you'll be fine. Or just use another camera altogether.

Hope this wasn't too confusing.
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#5 Richard Tuohy

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Posted 02 August 2011 - 02:50 AM

Well, if you read the above post from Martin, then what I wrote is incorrect. Hmmm, Martin is usually right, however I disagree in this instance. yes, this camera was designed to handle Type G film. That is why it reads 40/160/250 tungsten and 25/100/160 daylight. The Type G 160 cartridge had no filter notch - hence its asa notch was to be read in terms of the 'daylight' asa cartridge specifications. It has a 0.1 inch bigger notch than the 100 asa daylight notch.
But there is an easy way to tell who is right here (and as I say, Martin is typically the one who is right!): all you have to do is open the film door, put a finger near the filter notch pin, have another finger near the filter switch, and look through the viewfinder. If what I am saying is correct and the 514 is indeed capable of reading 100 asa daylight cartridges, then if you hold in the filter pin with your finger, then flick the filter switch between the two settings (sun and bulb), you should see the light meter indicator move up (ie close down) 2/3rds of a stop when you switch from 'sun' to 'bulb'.
Simmilarly, with the filter switch left on 'sun', you should see no movement in the light meter when you press and unpress the filter notch pin.
My 514 is on loan at the moment, so I can't do the test myself.
Do these tests and find out for yourself then.
Martin is indeed typically correct!
Richard
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#6 Martin Baumgarten

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Posted 02 August 2011 - 02:09 PM

I had a feeling this would get confusing Richard. I try to stick to the facts, and in the Super 8mm camera equipment world, it can be quite confusing at times. One of the 'problems' is that filmspeeds have changed over the recent years, and the original filmstocks available at the time many cameras were made, have been discontinued. Before I get into this, let's just go over some basics which can be confusing.

[1]. Originally, most Super 8mm Color Reversal Stocks were Tungsten films, requiring the use of the builtin Wratten #85 Daylight Conversion Filter. Today, those stocks are gone now. We have EKTACHROME 100 Daylight Color Reversal which doesn't need the builtin Filter.....so using this film means setting the camera's Filter Knob to the Bulb Lamp setting and/or having the cartridge just push the Filter out of the way since there's no Filter Notch.

[2]. The only Super 8mm Color Films requiring the Daylight Conversion Filter (or a separate add on filter to do this) are: the discontinued EKTACHROME 64T, VISION 200 Tungsten, VISION 500 Tungsten, and a FUJI filmstock being privately packaged.

[3]. Over 35 years ago, Kodak TRI-X 7278 B&W Reversal had an effective filmspeed rating of ASA 250 and it remained that way into the early 1980s, then was lowered to ASA/ISO 200 on all their packaging. PLUS-X 7276 was ASA 50 without the Filter and ASA 32 with the Filter, but the cameras rated it at ASA 40 without Filter and ASA 25 with Filter. TRI-X could only be used with the Filter IF you cut your own Filter Notch into the cartridge.

Back to the dilema here regarding the CANON 514 XLS Sound/Silent camera. And for the record, I have my CANON 514 XLS on my lap and the instruction manual to refer to in addition to my own experience, to avoid more confusion. The CANON offers 6 filmspeeds to use....and really....and this goes for most Super 8mm cameras.....the Daylight speeds are default settings owing the light loss of when the builtin Daylight Conversion Filter is in position.

The camera has two filmspeed setting prongs in the film chamber, and using these allows for a small variety of film cartridge settings via the cartridge notch.
(1). both prongs pushed in, for ASA/ISO 40 Tunsgten without the Filter in position, or the default ASA 25 rating when the Filter is IN position.

(2). one prong pushed in, for ASA/ISO 160 Tungsten without the Filter in position, or the default ASA 100 Daylight rating when the Filter is IN position. NOTE: This does NOT work with EK100D since the camera will rate the film at ISO 160...NOT ISO 100....and that is WITHOUT the Filter. [WITH the Filter IN position, which you can't do anyhow, unless you either screwed one on the lens or cut your own Filter Notch.....the meter would expose for ISO 100.....BUT.....since the Filter would be in use....the film would be all orange and again, underexposed since the Filter would lower the amount of light reaching the film....effectively really being now ISO 64.]

(3). both prongs out, for ASA/ISO 250 Tungsten without the Filter in position, or the default ASA 160 Daylight rating. To get that with TRI-X film, you'd have to cut your own Filter Notch.

The ONE exception here is an internal metering workaround done to accommodate the former EKTACHROME 160 Type G. Since the cartridge doesn't have the Filter Notch, the cartridge wall pushed the film chamber filter removal pin in, and removes the Filter from the lens light path. That cartridge has a slightly larger filmspeed notch than that of EKTACHROME 160 Type A. That longer notch allows BOTH filmspeed setting prongs to remain out, setting the meter to ISO 160....but without the Filter. The camera has an electric-mechanical interface from the Filter system to the meter, so that when both prongs are not pushed in by having this larger filmspeed notch AND the Filter Pin in the film chamber pushed in to remove the Filter....the meter defaults to ISO 160.

There are quite a few cameras that do read the filmspeed notch correctly and will meter correctly when using EK100D, but this is not one of them. The closet films exposure wise that will work made by KODAK are TRI-X 7266 being rated at ISO 250 (close enough for most work) and VISION 200 Tungsten which depending on the length of the meter notch, will read at either ISO 160 or ISO 250. Here I must say, I do not know since I do not have a VISION 200T cartrige here to double check. If it's ISO 160, then it would be fine since the slight overexposure is okay.....but if it's ISO 250, then the slight underexposure in dim lit situations could be a problem.

Older GAF ST-111 and similar Chinon made cameras had stepping meter notch readers that could read filmspeeds from ASA 16 to ASA 250, and will read the "Tungsten" Notch of ISO 100, which means WITHOUT Filter, and since EK100D is a Daylight balanced film, that is what is needed. There are many other cameras, and some of the higher end cameras can either read the notch or have some exposure biasing knob for Under & Over Exposure fine tuning in 1/3 Stop increments to a Stop over or under. AND even then, there's some disparity in the earlier cameras regarding use of the now discontinued EK 160 Type G film since it didn't exist prior to KODAK's XL series cameras.

So much for easy dropin loading, point and shoot and have auto exposure, eh? My goal is just to get newbies and others to not end up wasting precious film & processing costs and then getting ticked off and just saying, "screw it, I'm shooting video!" Ugh! My two cents here to keep film alive.

In the end, what does all this mean? The EK100D will be underexposed about 1/2 a Stop, and for some situations it might be okay......you'd have to test it out yourself. But I recommend only shooting a few feet of it in AUTO mode, and manual override all other shooting as I stated in my previous post (via using the EE Lock etc)....otherwise, you'll be mighty upset at getting back an entire roll of film that is too dark!
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#7 Christian Nelson

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Posted 02 August 2011 - 03:16 PM

Thanks everyone for the input, my question now is the Plus-X I shot a write off or can I have it pushed during processing? Again thanks a lot for taking the time to help out, theres lots of info to take in.
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#8 Christian Nelson

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Posted 02 August 2011 - 04:18 PM

Also I was reading up on my other camera the Sankyo 420 xl and came across an article by a Martin Baumgarten and am guessing its you. Would this camera be a better option for plus-x and 100d or am running into the same problems? I haven't used this cam at all and haven't read up on it a whole lot so any info would be very much appreciated.
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#9 Christian Nelson

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Posted 02 August 2011 - 05:51 PM

Ok so I think I have answers to both my questions now. For some reason I missed Martin talking about the option to pull process it. I think I must have been overwhelmed by all of the info. Lots to take in but I am definatly learning a ton. I am going to try out some of these methods and see how things go. Thanks again for helping out a newbie, really appreciated.
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#10 Richard Tuohy

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Posted 04 August 2011 - 04:19 AM

Hello Christian and Martin,
I am afraid I can't resit coming back to this thread.
My Canon 514xl was returned and i was able to do the required test. It is indeed the case that this model was designed to be able to shoot 100 asa daylight type stocks notched in the correct way.
Here is how we can easily know this:
Get a cartridge of old Ektachrome 160. This has the same asa notch as the current Ektachrome 100, but the 160 has the addition of a filter notch.
With the filter switch on 'sun', insert the E160 and point the camera at a neutral, evenly lit subject. Take a light meter reading.
As we know, the reading will take the internal 85 filter into account. As such, the reading will be for 160 asa film, minus 2/3rds of a stop light loss for the filter. Switch the filter switch to 'bulb' of course, and now the reading will be based on 160 asa without the 85 filter, so 160 asa minus nothing. But we are interested in the reading with the switch on 'sun'.
Now, compare this to a cartridge of normal Ektachrome 100d with the filter switch on 'sun'. You will get exactly the same reading as you did with the Ektachrome 160 with the filter switch in the 'sun' position - that is, a reading based on 100 asa - , but because of the lack of filter notch, there will be no 85 filter in the light path. Thus, this camera (and any other that passes this test) is able to read E100d and Plus-x 7265 just fine.
Of course, you don't need to do this test with actual cartridges; you can simply put your finger on the relevant pins, etc.. But this illustration makes it absolutely clear. It also makes the discussion clearer as the 514 is a 40/160 and 250 camera, and without a cartridge in the chamber (and hence with no asa pins pressed) the camera's light meter is working in its 250 asa mode (which is 160 when the filter switch is on 'sun' and 250 when the filter switch is on 'bulb').
Not all cameras with filter notch readers work this way ... but many do and its a simple test.
But wait, there's more!
When using E100d in this AND MANY 40/25, 160/100 cameras, it is ESSENTIAL to have the filter switch set to 'SUN'. Do not think 'better to be safe than sorry, and we'll use the filter switch as well as trusing the filter notch pin'. With this camera and many similar cameras, flicking the filter switch will over-ride the filter pin. Yes, the filter will be removed, but now the camera will base its exposure on the assumption that it is a tungsten based film, thus exposing the film as 160 asa with no filter.
So here's the deal: the filter notch pin removes or allows the filter but does not affect the camera's asa rating for any particular asa notch. The filter switch, on the other hand, adds or removes the filter AND IN DOING SO also adjusts the asa - 25 becomes 40, 100 becomes 160, etc..
cheers,
richard
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#11 Martin Baumgarten

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Posted 05 August 2011 - 12:09 AM

My final reply to this topic....it's going on long enough. The CANON 514 XLS was designed and engineered to accommodate the 6 filmspeeds as outlined in the owner's manual. As with any Super 8mm camera, there can always be some inbetween variations via a combination of settings due to the Cartridge's Filmspeed Notch, the Filter Removal Button/Lever in the Film Chamber, and the Daylight/Tungsten external switch/knob. This thread has proven one thing for sure......to really know, TEST your own camera via what Richard mentioned. There will be some that allow usable variations so that EK100D can be used in Automatic Metering mode, others, that won't be the case.

Every Super 8mm camera made doesn't have the same options for setting the filmspeed, nor do they all have the same method of adjusting the light meter setting via either the Film Chamber Filter Removal pin/lever OR via using the External Filter Selection Knob. Some cameras have the photo cell behind the Filter, so it will read thru that Filter, and only has an exposure change factored in that way. The only way to really know is to test any given camera. Many can be used regardless, by doing some other method of using them, or by modifying the meter's adjustment potentiometer on the circuit board, or even if needed.....by modifying the film's processing. I didn't get the same variation on my CANON 514 XLS here that Richard did. I can only report on my own results and experience, and what the manufacturer states in their literature. There can and will always be variations at times, outside of the mainstream information......so the key of course, is to RUN TESTS! Good luck and good filming results to all on here.
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#12 Jim Carlile

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 02:02 AM

Although I'm not sure about the 514XLS, every Canon I've seen adheres to the SMPTE Super 8 standard, which is that the absence of a filter-notch automatically retracts the internal 85 filter AND sets the camera's exposure meter to the lower ASA of whatever speed-indice the cartridge is cut.

So, in the case of, say, Tri-X, the speed-notch sets the meter at ASA 250/160 and the 'notchless' cartridge sets the meter at ASA 160.

The same with 100D-- it is cut for ASA 160/100, and the notchless cartridge sets the meter for the lower of the two, which is ASA 100.

Here's where the confusion comes in. Because 'G' film was invented, many later cameras dispensed with the SMPTE protocol so that this higher speed 'non-filtered' daylight film could be read at its normal ASA 160 rating. The same thing applied to Tri-X, which essentially came onto the consumer market at about the same time.

With these cameras, the meter was automatically set to ASA 160 no matter whether the cartridge had a filter notch or not. The 514XLS may be one of these, and I suspect that it is.

In fact, I'm not familiar with too many cameras that will override the auto-setting simply by toggling the filter switch back and forth if there's a notchless cartridge. The silver body Nizos are one example, but there weren't too many others.

There's an easy way to check, though: with the notchless cartridge in the camera, just toggle the filter switch back and forth and see if the exposure setting changes by 2/3 stop. If so then yes, these cameras have that ability.

And if they do, make sure that-- for daylight film-- the f/stop reading that you use is the smaller one (the bigger number in the window). That 2/3 stop difference makes up for the 2/3 stop sensitivity difference between the two ASAs.
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