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Presenting a native ultraPan8 projector.


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#1 Nicholas Kovats

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 10:23 PM

A very big thanks to Douglas Palmer in the UK in unearthing an actual native declassified UK Ministry of Defense ultraPan8 projector!

UltraPan8 is a new native ultrawide film format with an aspect ratio of 2.8:1 that happens to be wider than Cinemascope. UP8 utilizes is a hybrid of Bolex H8 + H16 cameras, i.e.

When Douglas first contacted me I could not believe the following plate inscription in his attached photos, i.e "Use 16mm film perforated for 8mm pulldown only". Which begs the question where is the associated UltraPan8 camera? He purchased it at a Min of Defense auction a few years ago thinking it was a regular 16mm projector.

Here are the specs as per Douglas's email, i.e.

"It's a LW Photo Data Analyzer, Model 224A Mk.4. Made in California. It is 240 volts and has old style pre-focus lamp from 300w to 1000w. Speeds 1-12 fps. and 24 fps. 2 inch lens. The light output is cut down a lot by the built-in heat filter so really
should be removed. (It's really used for single frame projection mainly.)"

I will be arranging shipment to Jean-Louis Seguin for some slight modification work. The present gate is slightly too high and somewhat not wide enough. Douglas has also provided the following videos detailing some aspects of this UP8 projector, i.e.

1. 24FPs projected on grid paper to illustrate projector frameline and registration.
http://www.youtube.c...u/2/ZcZUDcGkzKQ

2. The projector exterior.
http://www.youtube.c...u/1/_qC3qvkUYo8

3. Stepped speed mode.
http://www.youtube.c...u/0/lmwEMubTjV4


Check out Douglas's blog at http://filmisfine.co/. He is currently working on or with Ultra16mm cameras.
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#2 Charles MacDonald

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Posted 23 September 2011 - 09:09 PM

A modified, semi special.

By the looks of the srokets and the lamp house it started off as a Kodak 16mm.

Kodak made a spot/still/slow 16mm projector as an ANALYST 16. They also OEMed them out to someone who made a "lafayette" 16. for militray use, a contractor could just start with teh commercial unit and modify away.

Major market was sports team - To watch game film, Testing labs, and of course the military.

Dropping to a 1500 Pull down, would be only a couple of dozen parts to change at the factory level. I wonder if the associated Camera was a high speed unit where using 8mm pulldown would half the film speed. (sort of like 2 perf 35mm)

shows an analyist in use.

(note that it has the same lens as your, but with the Special add on lens to make the picture wider, (or narrower if reversed) that fits most of the Analyist and Pagents.
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#3 Nicholas Kovats

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Posted 24 September 2011 - 10:00 AM

A modified, semi special.

By the looks of the srokets and the lamp house it started off as a Kodak 16mm.

Kodak made a spot/still/slow 16mm projector as an ANALYST 16. They also OEMed them out to someone who made a "lafayette" 16. for militray use, a contractor could just start with teh commercial unit and modify away.

Major market was sports team - To watch game film, Testing labs, and of course the military.

Dropping to a 1500 Pull down, would be only a couple of dozen parts to change at the factory level. I wonder if the associated Camera was a high speed unit where using 8mm pulldown would half the film speed. (sort of like 2 perf 35mm)

shows an analyist in use.

(note that it has the same lens as your, but with the Special add on lens to make the picture wider, (or narrower if reversed) that fits most of the Analyist and Pagents.


Hi Charles,

Interesting and I have noticed the similarities between the Kodak/Lafayette/Athena chassis. What do you mean by "1500" pull down? Is this a numerical index re: Regular 8mm pulldown.? Are you able to convert these projectors to 8mm pulldown yourself? I appreciate the video clip. Interesting add on lens.

By the way I reside in Toronto.
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#4 Charles MacDonald

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Posted 24 September 2011 - 06:50 PM

. What do you mean by "1500" pull down? Is this a numerical index re: Regular 8mm pulldown.? Are you able to convert these projectors to 8mm pulldown yourself? I appreciate the video clip. Interesting add on lens.

By the way I reside in Toronto.


Yes, I was thinking of the 1500 perf spec for regualr 8. I don't know anyone who does projector conversions. A military contractor would no doubt have many engineers on staff who could plan such a conversion. The You Tube clip is not mine, I just did a search for an example of the basic machine. You can find almost anything on the web if you hold your mouth right!
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#5 Nicholas Kovats

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 10:24 AM

Charles,

I have been advised that both standard 16mm and Regular 8mm dimensions perf dimensions are identical. But a tech at LIFT physically demonstrated that there is a slight difference in pitch by overlaying both 16mm and R8 film perfs.

Can you clarify the exact technical perf distinction between them re: dimension and pitch? This is fundamental to UP8.

If I am to request Mr. Nowill in the UK to reperf 2 perf 16mm negative into R8 would he not have to change the pitch of the existing 2 perforations on the stock 16mm film when adding 2 additional perfs for R8mm per 16 mm frame height?
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#6 Charles MacDonald

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 10:52 AM

Can you clarify the exact technical perf distinction between them re: dimension and pitch? This is fundamental to UP8.


Here is where it gets tricky.

Way back when there was only 35mm film, and it ws on Nutrate Base. (Scarry Times) the first motion picture printer was made. (stay with me here).

The machine worked by running the negative and the positive over a cylinder. and shining a light. The negative had shrunk at this point because Nitrate Film will do that when you process it, and so the Pitch was just a hair shorter than the fresh print film. This allowed for the cylinder and all was well.

As the base was changed to various "safety" film formulas, the base would no longer shrunk in processing, (as much anyway) and so they started to make the negative film with a "short Pitch" .1866 rather then .1870. 4 thousands of an inch shorter.

16mm came along after this so it also has Positive and Negative pitch. Positive is .3000.

Some reversal film is made with the positive pitch, some with negative pitch, the slight difference is not noticed in many situations. Negative film is of course made with negative pitch so it can run an the traditional printer.

Regular 8 has the same size holes, but half as far apart. allowing 4 images in the space of one 16mm Image.

{WHEW}

Now the film still does shrink a bit over time, and so the ACTUAL spacing you will find on a given strip of film is a combination of the original pitch - plus how much it has shrunk.

When the film is made, the perfs are all made at once, and so it can be made with regular 8, super 8 or 16mm perfs. It is just a mater of what dies Kodak(or whoever) sticks in their Bell and Howell Perforater. If you want to perforate it yourself, it would be best to work from unperforated stock. George Eastman made it difficult to slit 16mm stock from 35mm stock on purpose , as he wanted the "home use" 16mm film to be 100% Safety Film.

I dont know what size order Kodak would want to perf some Negative film as Regular 8. They still sell Ektachrome and Tri-X reversal as regular 8 as long as you order several thousand feet of teh stuff, and accept it on 400 ft rolls. The german film dealers seem to slit some fuji stocks and perf them as regualr 8, but I don't know if they get the stock as 16mm or unperfed 35mm or if they have to get one strip of 16 out of a strip of 35.

{WHEW AGAIN}

Have I come close to answering you?
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#7 Jean-Louis Seguin

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Posted 25 September 2011 - 11:20 AM

Charles,

I have been advised that both standard 16mm and Regular 8mm dimensions perf dimensions are identical. But a tech at LIFT physically demonstrated that there is a slight difference in pitch by overlaying both 16mm and R8 film perfs.

Can you clarify the exact technical perf distinction between them re: dimension and pitch? This is fundamental to UP8.

If I am to request Mr. Nowill in the UK to reperf 2 perf 16mm negative into R8 would he not have to change the pitch of the existing 2 perforations on the stock 16mm film when adding 2 additional perfs for R8mm per 16 mm frame height?





Hi Nicholas,

My guess is that it's because pretty much all 16mm shooting stocks are short pitch (.2994").
Maybe the regular-8 is the original .3000" ?

Of course, any film shrinkage on one or the other or both samples will make comparing two lengths of film meaningless

Cheers,
Jean-Louis
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#8 Nicholas Kovats

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 01:10 PM

[/quote]
Have I come close to answering you?
[/quote]

I appreciate the detailed pitch info, Charles.

Apparently the minimum order from Kodak Canada is 6000ft. Lift (http://lift.ca/) in Toronto ordered the "required" minimums this year for both their R8 E100D and Plus-X reversal. They offer both 25ft and 100ft spools and can actually spool down more if requested. I do not know the originating Kodak roll type prior to reperforation.

It is actually selling quite well as Toronto is evolving into a sort of NA epicenter for the contracting film industry. For example, they are the largest sellers in Canada of Super 8 film averaging 500x S8 carts/week in the summer down to approximately 100-200x in the winter.

Sarah Polley's latest motion picture film project in Toronto ended up shooting over 900x S8 E100D carts and apparently exhausted Kodak's local supply with LIFT providing the uptake with their own stock.

It has been suggested that if UP8 becomes more popular LIFT may consider alternative R8 stocks to reperf officially with Kodak Canada. But in the interim I will most likely utilize Mr Nowill's services.

But is shrinkage not time based? The pitch comparison demoed by LIFT staff regarding R8 and 16mm perfs utilized fairly fresh stock.
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#9 Nicholas Kovats

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 01:17 PM

Hi Jean-Louis,

I am beginning to get a sense that UP8 cameras or motion picture cameras in general will tolerate variations in pitch as long as the actual perf dimensions are identical.

LIFT utilized fairly fresh stock for the R8/16mm perf demo and I believe shrinkage can be negated from the equation.

Regards,

NK
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#10 Charles MacDonald

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 08:08 PM

Maybe the regular-8 is the original .3000" ?


The last Kodak Catalong I downloaded was over a year ago, But it shows both the TXR and E100 as short pictch.

16 mm with 8 mm Perforations

KODAK EKTACHROME 100D Color Reversal Film / 7285 / SP467 / 16 mm x 400 ft roll / On Core, (Type R) / 2R-1497 CAT 8679318 !

16 mm with 8 mm Perforations
KODAK TRI-X Reversal Film 7266 / SP467 / 16 mm x 400 ft roll / On Core / 2R-1497


The "normal" 16mm is KODAK TRI-X Reversal Film 7266 / SP457 / 16 mm x 400 ft roll / On Core / Winding B / 1R-2994
8602377

The Regular 8 is "finish to order", so it Would be made from Yet to be Perforated stock, when the order was made up.
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#11 Nicholas Kovats

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 09:20 PM

Thanks again, Charles, for the wealth of detail.

I now understand the Kodak catalog numbering pattern as in perf/pitch, e.g. 1R-2994. Do you work in the film business?
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