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RED's response to Canon's new cinema camera: Scarlet DSMC


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#1 Martin Hong

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 12:02 AM

Just not long ago Canon has announced their brand new Digital Cinema Camera: Cinema EOS C300

Posted Image

And apparently, RED has something to say too: the brand new Scarlet DSMC, even cheaper, comparing to C300's $20,000 price, Scarlet is starting $9,750, under 10,000, yeah you heard it right:

Source: http://www.engadget....d-4k-video-for/

It seems that I am gonna be able to use my Canon lenses to this beauty, and its getting cheaper every time...


I am still trying to find more technical specification for this camera, if you have any, please add them below in the comment section.
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#2 Brian Drysdale

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 05:02 AM

Usual thing with RED products, the shooting rig price is more than the cost of the brain, so I'd add a few more grand to that figure - the Canon package price is $14k.
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#3 Jim Jannard

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 05:18 AM

The Canon price is $20K. For 1080P. A similar package price for Scarlet is about $13.5K for 5K stills and 4K motion. Canon sells you a different camera for a Canon mount and a PL mount. Scarlet (and EPIC) offers interchangeable mounts. Canon shoots RGB. Scarlet and EPIC REDCODE RAW.

You can choose to not like us (a trend here)... but you can't fault us for trying to deliver the most for the least... and for pushing the industry.

Jim
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#4 Keith Walters

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 05:32 AM

The Canon price is $20K. For 1080P. A similar package price for Scarlet is about $13.5K for 5K stills and 4K motion. Canon sells you a different camera for a Canon mount and a PL mount. Scarlet (and EPIC) offers interchangeable mounts. Canon shoots RGB. Scarlet and EPIC REDCODE RAW.

You can choose to not like us (a trend here)... but you can't fault us for trying to deliver the most for the least... and for pushing the industry.

Jim

Well anyway, I think we've found out who attacked your server
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#5 Brian Drysdale

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 05:43 AM

You can choose to not like us (a trend here)... but you can't fault us for trying to deliver the most for the least... and for pushing the industry.

Jim


Not a comment about not liking RED, just pointing out it's best not to jump to headline price figures. In practise, Canon the street price will be lower, I've read approx $16k being the price from one supplier.

Both cameras do offer new options in this price band, how important the 1080p or 4K motion is depends on the market you're involved in.

I'm hoping you'll be bringing out a professional 2/3" camera, it's a pity about the technical problems with the fixed lens.
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#6 Geoff Howell

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 06:48 AM

WOW! I guess the D-SLR's live to fight another day; in that the EOS C300 was being widely tipped as an replacement for the 5D2, but Canon have completely missed the point that the 5D,7D ect ect sold like hotcakes because they were very very cheap!

the new Scarlet looks amazing(and priced incredibly well) but again the D-SLR crowd are likely to look at it as being rental camera rather than a replacement for a $1000 Canon.
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#7 jacob thomas

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 07:09 AM

WOW! I guess the D-SLR's live to fight another day; in that the EOS C300 was being widely tipped as an replacement for the 5D2, but Canon have completely missed the point that the 5D,7D ect ect sold like hotcakes because they were very very cheap!

the new Scarlet looks amazing(and priced incredibly well) but again the D-SLR crowd are likely to look at it as being rental camera rather than a replacement for a $1000 Canon.


The 2/3" camera which they were showing over the past year would have been much more exciting from my perspective (inter changeable lense or not).

3k is still heaps for most applications and the greater depth of field of 2/3" would have suited me.

This looks more like a 2nd quality Epic.
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#8 Hal Smith

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 07:26 AM

You can choose to not like us (a trend here)... but you can't fault us for trying to deliver the most for the least... and for pushing the industry.


As a Sustaining Member, I'll personally apologize for the "tone" towards your products that some members here are often expressing. Canon V. RED is a valid discussion, both of you make cameras that can be (and are) used professionally. Which to use for a given project? That's a discussion, not a Catechism.
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#9 Matt Stevens

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 07:51 AM

Personally, I am wowed and impressed and with a 50k to 100k feature in the planning, Scarlet is now going to be a serious piece of the planning. I'm having a meeting with the DP and lead actor (and co-producer) this very day about it's potential in our production.

And we are not thinking of renting, by the way.
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#10 Robert Houllahan

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 08:18 AM

Scarlet looks like a great digital camera at a very attractive price Jim, congrats looks like a winner.

Here is my latest hilite handling test, wonder how it would have done:



It was definitely those Lomo-Kino guys who crashed your server.... you know that a $79 plastic hand cranked 35mm camera is the wave of the future.....Those ex Soviets can be down right mean....

-Rob-
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#11 Brian Drysdale

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 08:57 AM

My impression is that there has been generally more negative comments about the C 300 than the Scarlet and there currently are more positive things being said about the very niche Lomo-Kino hand cranked camera than the Canon.

I guess many sums will have to done in comparing these new cameras for use on a production. For example including the cost of say a Nanoflash with the F3 whem comparing it to the C300 and what appears to be the lack of XLRs on the canon. Will the RAW workflow work better than a video file workflow for a particular production.

It's great to have these options; including the hand cranked camera.

Edited by Brian Drysdale, 04 November 2011 - 08:58 AM.

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#12 Geoff Howell

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 09:51 AM

and there currently are more positive things being said about the very niche Lomo-Kino hand cranked camera than the Canon.


In all fairness you just have to look at the specks:

The Lomo-Kino shoots fully Raw footage on a 35mm 'sensor' and will probably do slow motion if you crank it really really really fast :D
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#13 Robert Houllahan

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 10:40 AM

My impression is that there has been generally more negative comments about the C 300 than the Scarlet and there currently are more positive things being said about the very niche Lomo-Kino hand cranked camera than the Canon.



I think there were so many built up expectations amongst the Canon DSLR fan-base that almost no matter what Canon released it was not going to be what people wanted, especially price wise. It looks like an OK camera to me, for what it is. I think it was Geoff Boyle who opined that one can get the best possible look from Epic but that you have to do the work to get it, the Canon (and F3) are probably easier to use and both can make edit ready files with decent specs out of the box.

I think it was a good move on the Red teams part to make a "mini" Epic instead of a 2/3" replacement that's their deal, 35mm sensor and lots of resolution. There is a wide range of smaller format imagers like 16mm (the best) and 3-chip broadcast cameras and the A-Cam and Si-2K so there is allot to choose from.

-Rob-
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#14 Brian Drysdale

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 11:40 AM

I think there were so many built up expectations amongst the Canon DSLR fan-base that almost no matter what Canon released it was not going to be what people wanted, especially price wise. It looks like an OK camera to me, for what it is. I think it was Geoff Boyle who opined that one can get the best possible look from Epic but that you have to do the work to get it, the Canon (and F3) are probably easier to use and both can make edit ready files with decent specs out of the box.


Geoff Boyle has been positive about the C300's images after the screenings, although I do get the impression that, from his comments. one of the demo films was screwed up a bit in post.
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#15 Robert Houllahan

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 01:04 PM

I bet that at this point any of these cameras will make good pictures, with certain limitations as to output format, resolution,etc depending on the particular camera in question. I just remember a CML post comment that Boyle made about thinking the Epic could achieve top performance but with the caveat that it required the most attention to get that.

Lots of cameras around these days..

-Rob-
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#16 Martin Hong

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 01:53 PM

The Canon price is $20K. For 1080P. A similar package price for Scarlet is about $13.5K for 5K stills and 4K motion. Canon sells you a different camera for a Canon mount and a PL mount. Scarlet (and EPIC) offers interchangeable mounts. Canon shoots RGB. Scarlet and EPIC REDCODE RAW.

You can choose to not like us (a trend here)... but you can't fault us for trying to deliver the most for the least... and for pushing the industry.

Jim


Jim, I will add a note here:

Canon also has announced that they are developing new line of DSLR Cinema Camera:
Posted Image

You can find the information on their official website (in Japanese), not much information is given, all we know is that it will be able to shoot 4k 24p Motion-jpeg footage on its 35mm sensor.

It looks like the 1Dx, which i presume that the future MSRP will be around there.

And they have throw brand new cinema lenses too, and that's interesting.

I don't take side nor am fan of any company, just i am glad of the new choice that you have in the market. Definitely the Scarlet has become my favorite beside the canon DSLR cameras.
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#17 Mei Lewis

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 08:54 AM

The Canon looks solid but unexciting, and four times the price it should be to appeal to most DSLR users.

The Scarlet is just a budget version of the Epic right? Hard to get excited about that either.
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#18 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 09:46 AM

Couldn't agree more about either situation.

P
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#19 Keith Walters

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 05:03 PM

The Scarlet is just a budget version of the Epic right? Hard to get excited about that either.

From what Jannard said (I mentioned this in another folder, not sure where now), the Scarlet is effectively pretty much the same camera as Epic, but with lower-spec components (Slower ASICs etc).
For most industry applications, on paper it looks like it will do most of what Epic will do, but for a fraction of the price.
While this is a perfectly sound manufacturing practice - 3 chip (and tube) camera manufacturers have been doing this for decades - one can't help wondering how new Epic owners are going to feel about this. If you regularly need high speed or super high resolution, you will be doing well, but how often do you need those?

Having said that, this probably is the most sensible development I've seen from them for some time.
If they could only see fit to develop some sort of bolt-on "afterburner" to give full-spec live output, they would be #1 in no time :)
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#20 John Sprung

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 06:17 PM

... and what appears to be the lack of XLRs on the canon. ...


No, it has two XLR's, according to the glossy from the Paramount show yesterday. The big differences are the price, and that the Canon looks and feels very consumer-grade, plastic, lotsa little buttons -- while the Red Scarlet is more solid and pro-looking.



-- J.S.
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