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positive prints and cross-process of negative BW


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#1 Pierre P Blais

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Posted 06 November 2011 - 12:51 AM

I have recently started experimenting with hand processing BW 16mm film. So far I've successfully developed some reversal 7266 as positive, and some hi-con 7363 as negative. I'm not looking at getting "lab" results anyways, and when I need clean stable result I still use a lab, but since technicolor stopped processing 16mm here in Montreal, and the closest lab requires shipping back and forth to Toronto, I'm enjoying having the ability to see what I shoot much sooner...

anyhow, I have what may seem like a novice question, but exactly how are positive made from negative? if I ask my lab in Toronto do make me a positive copy of my negative, what exactly goes on? So far I've only gone the digital route of scanning and making a "positive" digitally, but I'm curious. Is it a dark room process, I'm assuming it isn't. Does it require an optical printer? I know the film-coop I'm member of here has one in a room, though I've never quite understood what it can do...

also, I have yet to attempt hand cross-processing... would cross-processing a BW negative like the 7222 give me something similar to a positive? I understand the unpredictability of cross-processing, particularly as it relates to colour reversal, where you can get some intense color shift, green bias and such, but how does it relate in bw stock? shades of grey shifts? would projecting a cross-processed negative be more "lookable" then projecting a negative?

I have a project coming up for a theatre/circus show I'm directing, in which 16mm visuals will be used. 99% of these visuals will be digital transfers rear-projected in HD on stage, but I've been musing with the idea of bringing out my 16mm projector on stage, and projecting a short sequence onto the actors at one point during the show... so far so good. Things get complicated when I start musing further... what if in each performance night (only 5 nights total) I had someone on stage filming with my Bolex, just a single 100' roll, and that 3min of footage would be the physically projected film the following night (i.e. opening night would feature the 100' shot during dress-rehearsal and so on)... this implies I would hand-process the film during the day, for projection at night. However using 7266, rated at 160 for 3200K, in an uneven theatrically lit stage might be challenging exposure-wise. 7222, rated at 200 for 3200K, cross-processed would gain about 1-stop (am I making this up?), which brings me closer to my goal, but would the result be watchable when projected? I don't mind something a bit surreal, or whit a distinct aesthetic signature, but I would not want a negative-like, inverted image.

any thoughts?

thanks!

Pierre
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#2 Simon Wyss

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Posted 06 November 2011 - 05:40 AM

Salut, Pierre

Jʼai déjà fait ça avec un Kinamo et du Fomapan R 100. Jʼai tourné sur le plateau dʼun cinéma, quelque 25 mètres, conduit à mon propre labo que jʼavais à ce temps, développé la pellicule dans les bains bien préparés, séché, puis retourné en voiture, enfilé au projecteur et présenté au public qui pouvait ainsi voir soi-même environs deux heures plus tard.

Lʼeffet était la surprise parfaite sauf que les images étaient un peu sombres car il y avait que peu de lumière sur les spectateurs.

Bienvenue parmis les gens qui développent du film à la main!

Sache que le procédé dʼinversion marche bien avec nʼimporte quel film noir et blanc. Une chose à noter est que les matériaux négatifs ont un support coloré dans la masse, cʼest-à-dire la grey base. De là, perte dʼenvirons 40 pourcent de lumière à la projection. Fomapan R(eversal) est muni de triacétate incolore comme les film positifs ordinaires. Cʼest lʼunique vrai film à inversion avec une couche anti-halo. Cette couche, pur argent micrométallique, sera blanchie et dissoute lors le procédé complet dʼinversion.

Le tirage des positifs se présente assez simple. On met en contact le negatif avec du film vierge, couche image sur couche, et expose sous une lampe. Les Lumière, au début, posaient leur appareil devant un mur blanc dans le soleil, lʼobjectif retiré. Après quelques essais on connaît les conditions dʼexposition pour un matériel donné et peut copier.

Ce principe se trouve auprès toutes les tireuses depuis 1889.
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#3 Pierre P Blais

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Posted 06 November 2011 - 12:41 PM

merci, ça répond a ma question, évidement je vais faire des tests pour me faire une idée du look, mais ça me donne une direction et une idée à quoi m'attendre.
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#4 John Woods

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Posted 06 November 2011 - 02:14 PM

AFAIK nearly all B&W films can be processed as a negative or a positive, its just that some are designed to work better with a particular process. Since you're not worried about getting lab perfect results just something workable you've got a lot of freedom to experiment with.

You should try some test strips of push processing as 200asa is not a stop faster than 160asa. You could try solarizing the 7222. You could also create your own contact prints, which can be done by hand with a photographic enlarger and a 16mm sync block, or on a steenbeck with a slight modification. Main Film has a JK optical printer which can also create positive prints.
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#5 Charles MacDonald

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Posted 06 November 2011 - 08:20 PM

I understand taht the Fomapan is not designed to be processed as a negative, but it is possible to do a reversal process for most black and white films. You will of course be on safer ground using the ones designed for reversal.

Making prints means developing a negative and printing onto another piece of film. the classic B&W print stock is 7302. But that may be getting a bit had to find. Labs that do mostly colour may print on the colour stock these days. (although only a few labs anywhere seem to still be set up to make 16mm Prints.) The print stock then must also be processed.

for your Idea, of incorporating movies shot a short time ago, the B&W reversal, is probably a good bet. (or use Ektachrome 100D and run an e-6 process in something like a LOMO tank.

Either process should be done in an hour or lest - plus drying time. So you could probaly shoot at the afternoon show and plan on showing the film in the evening show.
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