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Philip Bloom on Red issues


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#1 Marcus Joseph

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 10:58 AM

I liked his honesty and I think it's quite shocking treatment to a customer.

http://philipbloom.n.../10/nomoreepic/
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#2 Freya Black

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 01:02 PM

Interesting.

I don't want to get too drawn into this, because I'm traditionally agnostic, and I even feel like I'm becoming a bit of an atheist on this subject, but one thing that appears to be a bit of a subtext to all this, is the suggestion that the EPIC is a camera that is in Beta and is perhaps not production ready yet. I knew there were certain major things yet to be implemented but hadn't really realised that it was perhaps still at such an early stage of development?

From the things that are being said, it sounds like EPIC users are currently considered to be beta testers as opposed to normal customers and that perhaps this is what all the talk of non-dislosure is about!

Does anyone know if this is the case and if the scarlet is considered the same?

I get the impression this is not widely known, certainly even Phillip seemed unawares if it is the case!

love

Freya
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#3 Vincent Sweeney

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 02:16 PM

I'm unclear as to why he didn't get an Alexa at that budget level. For what he is doing, it would be ideal it seems like. Reliable, better image in some ways and it's able to shoot to edit-ready ProRes in-camera if needed.
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#4 Deji Joseph

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 03:14 PM

I'm unclear as to why he didn't get an Alexa at that budget level. For what he is doing, it would be ideal it seems like. Reliable, better image in some ways and it's able to shoot to edit-ready ProRes in-camera if needed.


He shares ownership of the Epic with Eric Kessler I believe, also the Epics size seems to be a big factor for his work and fits the accessories he has already so it think hr decided its a better investment for him.

Dj
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#5 Vincent Sweeney

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 03:36 PM

That doesn't sound like the case after reading the post. Did you even read it?

And what accs. don't fit other cameras that the epic would use? Just curious which ones you mean in this case.

Also, the size of the Alexa is pretty small in reality. People seem to think there is a huge size difference but that isn't the case after you build the Epic moderately, of course it can be smaller. I can't find it right now but some ignorant, non-camera knowledgeable writer recently posted a tech article about all the new cameras and he showed the Alexa with a huge Optimo 24-290 zoom on it and was talking about how "large" the camera was, while the epic was pictured with a prime and nothing else. They do take batteries and need plates and monitors and maybe more, depending. People also seem to forget (or don't mention) that one reason the Alexa has a little bigger body is because it needs room for processing compressed files that are ready to edit without add-ons. There are so many users of Epics, reds, F3's, and so on, that have to use add-on recorders to get the kind of files that many producers need. The Alexa will spit out 444 Prores or Avid files instantly.
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#6 chris reynolds

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 03:50 PM

As far as i can see, the reason he bought an Epic and put a deposit down for a Scarlet-X instead of the Alexa was that, size wise, those cameras are more in common to the DSLR blog market he's carved for himself . Plus the advantage of the DSMC/Raw footage aspect is more in keeping with stills photography.

I think that most people were aware of RED's shortcomings and that issues are still there.

Now that's either because that 99% of the camera's that RED produce are perfect and that there's a few small 'Fail' rate as far as their products go…………..OR, that the operators who have paid hand over fist for their products are maybe 'fearful' of posting anything either negative or questioning the status quo, lest that they get banned from the site. And we know that that's happened before!!

Phil never mentions the senior person from RED by name, but did drop hints that it was the same person who admonished the disrespectful posters and banned Phil. Jim Jannard. As far as i could see, Jared Land had nothing to do with any of the posts.

The only other person who acts like this in the camera industry is Howard J. Smith from MK-V. If Phil is to be believed about the content of the e-mails he received from Red/Jim, then their seems to be a similarity in the reliability of both MK-V and RED products and a similarity by the owners in how they deal with customers complaining about their products.

Jim has today put up a post titled, The Case of Phil Bloom. It reads………



I guess everyone makes mistakes... this one was mine.

A lot has been posted about this so I thought I would clarify from our perspective.

This situation is my fault... no one else's. My apology was offered to Philip and apparently accepted.

Philip has returned his EPIC and cancelled his Scarlet order.

We will not allow any disrespectful posts here on Reduser about Philip or anyone else...

We consider the case closed. Nothing to see here... move along.

Jim


An honest admission of wrong doing by Jim Jannard OR the quickest and easiest way to STOP AND SHUT UP someone (like Phil) who has sway within the industry.

Just so everyone know's, i've neither posted on Phil's or RED's forums. I admire what RED have achieved BUT am sceptical of any company who act this way against individuals .
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#7 Vincent Sweeney

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 04:16 PM

It's definitely not a "99%". I can site enough issues with the cameras I've worked with alone to put that idea to rest. I'm still hoping for rock-solid refinement soon though. I love the fact that they will overcrank so high and that it's a US made product which might bias me a little by itself, just not yet, in their case. I want to feel good about their product but just like with the F!&@$ KiPro mini, which I was an early user/tester of and thus ended up hating the thought if using it again, I can't deal with questionable reliability and have to hold off. When people publicly complain after the makers of a product fail to get their job done, others seem to overreact way too fast. I guess most are either arm-chair filmmakers or are too emotionally invested into their material possessions.

Bloom made a name for himself in the video circles with fragile DSLR HD so I don't know how a cumbersome raw workflow (for the video side of it) fits into what he was doing already. If he really wanted it for the stills side of things, I bet he would have kept it, but why do that if you have a bunch of 5D's laying around? Isn't it a much better/practical stills camera? Unless you really need to shoot 100 of them each second?

The Alexa can do a lot more than ProRes too.
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#8 Deji Joseph

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 04:20 PM

That doesn't sound like the case after reading the post. Did you even read it?

And what accs. don't fit other cameras that the epic would use? Just curious which ones you mean in this case.

Also, the size of the Alexa is pretty small in reality. People seem to think there is a huge size difference but that isn't the case after you build the Epic moderately, of course it can be smaller. I can't find it right now but some ignorant, non-camera knowledgeable writer recently posted a tech article about all the new cameras and he showed the Alexa with a huge Optimo 24-290 zoom on it and was talking about how "large" the camera was, while the epic was pictured with a prime and nothing else. They do take batteries and need plates and monitors and maybe more, depending. People also seem to forget (or don't mention) that one reason the Alexa has a little bigger body is because it needs room for processing compressed files that are ready to edit without add-ons. There are so many users of Epics, reds, F3's, and so on, that have to use add-on recorders to get the kind of files that many producers need. The Alexa will spit out 444 Prores or Avid files instantly.


Sorry my mistake, haven't read this one, thought your were referring to one of his earlier blog posts about the Pros and Cons of his EPIC, I remember reading in one of his posts his kit could barely take the weight of the EPIC.
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#9 Marcus Joseph

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 11:59 PM

It's definitely not a "99%". I can site enough issues with the cameras I've worked with alone to put that idea to rest. I'm still hoping for rock-solid refinement soon though. I love the fact that they will overcrank so high and that it's a US made product which might bias me a little by itself, just not yet, in their case. I want to feel good about their product but just like with the F!&@$ KiPro mini, which I was an early user/tester of and thus ended up hating the thought if using it again, I can't deal with questionable reliability and have to hold off. When people publicly complain after the makers of a product fail to get their job done, others seem to overreact way too fast. I guess most are either arm-chair filmmakers or are too emotionally invested into their material possessions.

Bloom made a name for himself in the video circles with fragile DSLR HD so I don't know how a cumbersome raw workflow (for the video side of it) fits into what he was doing already. If he really wanted it for the stills side of things, I bet he would have kept it, but why do that if you have a bunch of 5D's laying around? Isn't it a much better/practical stills camera? Unless you really need to shoot 100 of them each second?

The Alexa can do a lot more than ProRes too.

I agree Vince, the Alexa would be a much better and reliable choice at that price range and for the work that he does, so the Epic may be base price at 50K or so, but once you add in all the necessities, it starts getting around the same price range as the Alexa anyway.

I also think the Alexa has a more organic filmic look to it. So I really don't understand his decision behind the Epic when he's even convinced himself that things like future proofing at 4K and so on are not all that necessary for his line of work. And he spends all his time encoding files to prores when the Alexa shoots straight to it and you have these cards at 32GB that can support twenty minutes of filming and superior battery life at that too.

Maybe a big selling point was to take advantage of all of his Canon lenses on the Red mount, but I don't think it's worth this kind of trouble. If I had the money to afford it, I'd much rather the Alexa and in Sydney especially its killing in sales and rental work at the moment.
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#10 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 09:18 AM

Could've been for the High speed work, and/or buying what people are asking for? Just my thought on why an Epic. I know here while Alexa is a better camera IMHO, more people ask for RED products on shoots, simply because; well that's what has been hyped. As for Mr. Bloom. It's nice that he spoke up and told his side as to what happened. Hopefully this causes some deep cultural changes @ RED, but I doubt it.
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#11 Matt Stevens

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 12:41 PM

As a company, RED is foolishly allowing absolutely disgusting behavior to take place in its forums and that needs to be stopped. The internet really has allowed people to just drop any sense of respect towards others.

RED simply needs to act like a company run by adults. clearly their cameras can generate amazing results. So they should stand on that and simply that.
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#12 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 12:49 PM

Isn't reduser run not by RED but someone else? I seem to recall reading in the complaints department about that....
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#13 Thomas Dobbie

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 03:07 PM

My understanding is that Reduser is owned by Jarrad Land.So I suppose in theory he could ban Jim Jannard :-)
A more cynical man than I,might be tempted to think that this was calculated.It certainly won't do any harm to Mr Blooms web figures and 'click through business'.
I'd be surprised if it did any harm to the sales of Scarlet,after all,Bloom's fan boys are not really potential Scarlet buyers.
All very boring really,and nothing to do with making images.
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#14 Robert Houllahan

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 04:27 PM

All very boring really,and nothing to do with making images.



Yeah! really more hot gas expended than in a run for office....

-Rob-
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#15 PhilipBloom

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Posted 14 December 2011 - 07:08 AM

My understanding is that Reduser is owned by Jarrad Land.So I suppose in theory he could ban Jim Jannard :-)
A more cynical man than I,might be tempted to think that this was calculated.It certainly won't do any harm to Mr Blooms web figures and 'click through business'.
I'd be surprised if it did any harm to the sales of Scarlet,after all,Bloom's fan boys are not really potential Scarlet buyers.
All very boring really,and nothing to do with making images.


Thomas,

Yes, spot on. I spent $80k on a camera with the bits, took it on loads of shots, deliberately made it go wrong all so I could do the final masterstroke in my plan...return the camera and write a blog post on it to get amazing click through numbers!

I have read a lot of nonsense about this recently but that takes the biscuit, especially from an educated man like yourself. This has been a miserable experience for me as I documented on my post. Give me a break please sir.

I am perplexed though if you found it so boring why bother to even comment on it...without a camera you cannot make pictures. So is this relevant to this forum? Well I didn't post it her but did feel a reply was needed.

As to why I bought an Epic...I like the size, the highs peed and when I use it I keep it REALLY compact. I love the Alexa but it's size is too heavy for my non stop flying. The Epic went in my think tank bag.

Kind Regards,

Philip

Edited by PhilipBloom, 14 December 2011 - 07:12 AM.

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#16 Paul Bartok

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Posted 14 December 2011 - 07:14 AM

I though Philip Bloom would of already joined here lol, good to see you have. Its horrible what happened to you at RED,
does any one think there talking bad about our forum on REDUSER just an thought??
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#17 Philip Bloom

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Posted 14 December 2011 - 07:27 AM

I though Philip Bloom would of already joined here lol, good to see you have. Its horrible what happened to you at RED,
does any one think there talking bad about our forum on REDUSER just an thought??


whoops...didn't use my existing account.
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#18 Marcus Joseph

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Posted 14 December 2011 - 08:02 AM

Philip, maybe look into the Alexa mini, could be a good addition to your arsenal and with no need for ridiculous encoding.

I'm personally intrigued by the 1Dx and C300, might lean towards the 1Dx for live event and timelapse stuff but both cameras really intrigue me in terms of high iso.I see most other gear that's not being used regularly as just hire when necessary, not worth the headache of a 50-100k purchase and dealing with the dreadful fanbases.
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#19 PhilipBloom

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Posted 14 December 2011 - 08:10 AM

Philip, maybe look into the Alexa mini, could be a good addition to your arsenal and with no need for ridiculous encoding.

I'm personally intrigued by the 1Dx and C300, might lean towards the 1Dx for live event and timelapse stuff but both cameras really intrigue me in terms of high iso.I see most other gear that's not being used regularly as just hire when necessary, not worth the headache of a 50-100k purchase and dealing with the dreadful fanbases.



I am just going to rent Alexas or EPICs from now on. I may buy a C300. Trying it out from tomorrow...
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#20 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 14 December 2011 - 08:16 AM

I think rental, for anything over a few thousand, is the smart way to go. It just takes so much pressure off of your own shoulders when sitting there with your $$$$ camera. When I'm out on my EX1 (now paid over many times) I don't worry about it breaking. It would suck, but it's not exactly a re mortgage on a house to replace it

Btw Mr Bloom. It's nice to see you on here. I hope you stick 'round and share your experiences.
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