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New Shift/Tilt idea...


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#1 Brian Alan

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 11:58 AM

Recently I started working on a project where I need to make the most of the dimensions of a room.

I would like too develop a new technique but first want to see what you all would think about it. It would involve a using a beam splitter to capture two near identical tilt shift images.

What I mean by "near identical" is that I would stagger the two so that the top camera would overlap by 1/3 of the image, so that instead of using a tilt shift and getting that nasty blur, I could layer the two images together thus creating a shifted image with no blur effect. I also would like to use the tilt effect but set up a gear system so that I could very slowly shift the lens during the course of the scene to create a slow change in perspective. I also want too use it for establishing footage and have the house change it's perspective from night to day.

I'm trying to come up with a way too slowly change the feeling of the room and make it feel more constricting or less constricting, kind off letting the room breath with the scene.
I have a few other idea's for the use of beam split footage but I would like to address this first. What are issues I could run into?

I'm planning static shots so I don't need to worry about follow focus.

I'm new too the site so thanks for your time.
Planning too shoot on either two hacked GH2's or Two 5D's.
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#2 Chris Millar

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 01:20 PM

Hello and welcome to the forum, I'm always interested in tilt/shift, timelapse and camera mod discussion - but I'm not sure I follow yet...

What I mean by "near identical" is that I would stagger the two so that the top camera would overlap by 1/3 of the image, so that instead of using a tilt shift and getting that nasty blur

What nasty blur ? From a shift ?


Using modulated shift in a shot has been done before in timelapse at least - check out Ron Frikes work... Cant find examples of it online, but it was architectural in theme, maybe Koyaanisqatsi

So you're using the beam splitter to get two shots, each optimized for the area they cover, then fusing them in post? If so then the whole in-camera thing is redundant (unless you're going to do that opti-chemically also??) - why not just morph and play with perspective in 2.5D in AE, Nuke etc.

Check out:

I might sound like a party pooper but am keen to hear about what you're doing.

How wide are you planning to go ? how will you viewfind ?
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#3 Brian Alan

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 05:02 PM

After effects looks like after effects. I would rather do as much in camera as possible.

I would much rather do something overly complicated and subtle. :)


I have seen what can be done with moving tilt shift images (had the chance to play with a friends setup recently) and I think it would be an interesting effect. Especially the way it would be framed , I thought about doing an upward shot, with the camera split being masked by the wall/ceiling line. Then tilting the floor flat and the ceiling slowly down, with a lighting fixture hanging from the ceiling so you also have something on the ceiling closer to you (also that would be the focus point for the B-camera. A-cam would be focused on the couch and talent.

I'm thinking about shooting this portion on two hacked 176mbit GH2's. I also have one PL mount and a set of panavision lenses.

I have another challenge which is to capture a "lightshow" in the air. A girl dances over a boy and illuminates herself with high power pulsing glow led lights (actually kick off BEAUTIFUL light) and I have color combos too choose from for her too use. The lights have 10 settings so I can get 10 different looks in the air. I have 12 t3i cameras I can use, and I am thinking about setting up 12 tilt shifts, all shifted slightly (one degree and all the way up too 12 degree's which seems to be the max before the image gets too wonky). All the cameras would be linked and a slightly slower shutter speed would catch the trails of light in the air. Then as it cuts between cameras there would be this warp as it goes along.

The blur wouldn't be an issue because the stills can be cropped perfectly to fit so there is no blur line.

The trick is going to be finding a way to match the lighting on the talent between the footage and the stills.
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#4 Brian Alan

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 05:12 PM

I forgot to add,


In the living room it would be a static shot straight on, both subjects laying upside down on a couch looking at the celing. The tilt/shift portion of the scene would be the master shifting slowly (not terribly wide just enough to have the side walls out of frame) it would hold for a bit then punch in to a medium two shot on the couch then a CU of them from above, then up at the light fixture which would shift, then back to the master and the room would be the opposite of when it started.

View find would be done via AC using external HD monitoring.

Edited by Thunky, 14 February 2012 - 05:17 PM.

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#5 Paul Bartok

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 06:55 PM

You have a set of Panavision Lenses?
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#6 Chris Millar

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 08:26 PM

View find would be done via AC using external HD monitoring.


oops, right yeh makes sense - forgot this wasn't on film Posted Image

This is still confusing - you realize that shifting a lens wont change perspective (as you've stated), it'll just change the relative expansion or contraction of the image along the spatial axis to correct for the effects of perspective - I get the feeling you understand this - it's just that what you describe is hard for me to picture exactly so (for me at least) I need it described concisely - pictures might be better ?

Are you planning on tilting or panning in sympathy with the shift ? Which is what Ron Frike did... (and in which case unless your tripod isn't nodal (%99.999 of them) then you will get a small perspective change, but I guess that is by the by...)

Still not sure about the nasty blur you refer to.

I thought about doing an upward shot, with the camera split being masked by the wall/ceiling line. Then tilting the floor flat and the ceiling slowly down, with a lighting fixture hanging from the ceiling so you also have something on the ceiling closer to you (also that would be the focus point for the B-camera. A-cam would be focused on the couch and talent.




Ok, perspective is up..
Split being masked by wall ceiling line - ok got it..


er, no hang on - split from 1 lens to two cameras ? if so, you'd have to shift/tilt the cameras rather than the lens, interesting. Or do you mean two lenses to one sensor ? (yeech)


'Then tilting the floor flat' - ok, you've lost me
'and the ceiling slowly down' you mean tilting the rig/shot or the lenses or ?


This is motion controlled or are you freewheeling by eye ? You have the mechanisms or that's what you'd like to discuss ?




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#7 Chris Millar

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 08:26 PM

View find would be done via AC using external HD monitoring.


oops, right yeh makes sense - forgot this wasn't on film Posted Image

This is still confusing - you realize that shifting a lens wont change perspective (as you've stated), it'll just change the relative expansion or contraction of the image along the spatial axis to correct for the effects of perspective - I get the feeling you understand this - it's just that what you describe is hard for me to picture exactly so (for me at least) I need it described concisely - pictures might be better ?

Are you planning on tilting or panning in sympathy with the shift ? Which is what Ron Frike did... (and in which case unless your tripod isn't nodal (%99.999 of them) then you will get a small perspective change, but I guess that is by the by...)

Still not sure about the nasty blur you refer to.

I thought about doing an upward shot, with the camera split being masked by the wall/ceiling line. Then tilting the floor flat and the ceiling slowly down, with a lighting fixture hanging from the ceiling so you also have something on the ceiling closer to you (also that would be the focus point for the B-camera. A-cam would be focused on the couch and talent.




Ok, perspective is up..
Split being masked by wall ceiling line - ok got it..


er, no hang on - split from 1 lens to two cameras ? if so, you'd have to shift/tilt the cameras rather than the lens, interesting. Or do you mean two lenses to one sensor ? (yeech)


'Then tilting the floor flat' - ok, you've lost me
'and the ceiling slowly down' you mean tilting the rig/shot or the lenses or ?


This is motion controlled or are you freewheeling by eye ? You have the mechanisms or that's what you'd like to discuss ?




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#8 Brian Alan

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 11:09 PM

I mean two tilt shift lenses on two cameras each being shifted in opposite directions. As far as the motion control I have yet to decide. It could be done by eye it would just take a few practice tries to gauge the speed. (hard to explain I need to draw it too show you). After playing with a tilt shift and trying it on one camera, I think the idea will work I can visualize it.

They aren't my lenses...no no no, but we have the panavision set at the university I attend in Santa Fe.

Sorry I don't know my tilt/shift terminology well, I don't mean "tilt" as in camera movement, I mean moving the actual degree of tilt on the lens it self.


The nasty (or at least I don't think it looks good) blur I'm talking about is usually how I first spot a tilt shift image, It's the flat line where the image becomes out of focus. Shooting with the two at once and cropping 1/3 of the image out and replacing it with the bottom part of the other image would give you one shifted image with no out of focus blur line. Something I don't want hovering above their heads.

I currently do not have the tilt shift lenses available to experiment.

The image that sparked my interest and gave me the idea was a random blog video posted about a puppeteer, he shot a set with a tilt shift and as the footage rolled, he frame by frame moved the puppet stop motion and slowly shifted the lens, it gave you the sense that the walls were starting to tower over the puppet. I want this effect. I know it was tilt shift and not some other effect because I saw his making of reel at the end, and again...it has the out of focus line start to develop as it shifted.

I want to avoid panning the GH2's in the room because that seems to be the weekness with them unless you go really steady and slow. Plus I want the room to feel like it's moving and changing not the camera.

Edited by Thunky, 14 February 2012 - 11:10 PM.

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#9 Brian Alan

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 11:23 PM

Imagine this, this was multiple shots using 12degree shift images.

Combine to make one larger shifted image. Same concept...kind of. Posted Image


Unrelated but has anyone tried tilt shift coupled with anamorphic? Is the squeezed image effected more by tilt shift then normal?
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#10 Chris Millar

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 01:48 AM

This stuff sure his hard to communicate with out sitting down with a stern cup of very black coffee and some scrap paper huh...

(maybe a couple of tabs of acid and a glass of soy milk to chill out with afterwards)

ok...

Well, it's sounding kinda freeform - well, what I mean to say is, I bet lots of interesting stuff could come of it, stuff that wasn't planned and so on.

Can i just ask how much you know about tilt (in particular) photography ? The way you talk about the blur is as if you've only ever seen faux macro imagery, where the focal pane has been put off angle to the subject in an effort to fake a super low DOF (characteristic of macro) - but there are myriad other tilt photographs where the effect of extended DOF are present (look ma, no blur!) - it's the fact that they look normal that hides that it was quite a technical photograph...

PC = perspective correction - as in, make it look 'better' or normaler-erer

Shift is independent enough (for the most part, at least for the purposes f this discussion) of tilt in that a sweet spot where they work in harmony can be found to achieve both the convergence/divergence you're after and the focus.
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#11 Chris Millar

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 01:54 AM

btw... sorry, if you know this, but it does serve to help others understand what we're on about - at least I hope I'm getting it right Posted Image
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#12 Brian Alan

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 01:18 PM

Your a good guy Chris, nice sense of humor. However for me it's Goat Tranquilizer and Almond milk. :)


I don't know enough about Tilt-Shift apparently, I know enough to know what it COULD do to the image but not enough to clearly articulate. :)
Maybe I was just nagging about the blur because that seems to be every yahoo's way of trying to use tilt shift, and if I see once more mini time lapse
I'm going to loose faith in humanity, hey it works out better for those who are interested in the other benefits of the system.


So just for the sake of research do you know of anything that's been done similar (the slow shift while camera is rolling). All the examples I have seen are more music video quick-cut rapid examples it seems.

It will be quite an experiment, I was actually interested in fabricating my own shift system after looking at the arri design.
Lucky enough to have a metal fabricator for a good friend.

I would like too find a good book with tilt landscape and architecture to check out some images for inspiration. Also interested in learning more about differences in lens choice with the shift system. Where should I look Chris?
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#13 Chris Millar

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 02:00 PM

I dont want to dissuade you at all.

The scene I'm thinking of is etched in my brain, but I cant think of the actual film, I've done a deep search on the net for reference of it on a couple of occasions and only found links to myself talking about it. Pretty sure it's Ron Frike.

I dont have much time right now, but I was going to say design ideas can be found from any view or field camera - but considering the tightness that'll likely be involved due to the sizes of the camera, and the fact it might need to be motor driven - hmmm, maybe have a look at the hasselblad flexbody for inspiration:

Posted Image


search it out...

I think a bag bellows would suffice - How close your lenses get to the camera are a major consideration - panavision PL with GH2 - ok, tick, lots of coverage in terms of thrown image on the sensor with a wide - but clearance issues, hrrmmmm

;)

Edited by Chris Millar, 15 February 2012 - 02:01 PM.

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#14 Chris Millar

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 02:04 PM

actually,

Modifying a Hartblei Super-Rotator for motion control might be the go:

Posted Image


http://www.hartblei....s/lens_45mm.htm
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#15 Damien Andre

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 10:25 PM

since the one half image is just going to be the ceiling, couldn't you do them separately then merge in post (which you'd be doing anyway). thatd simplify the rig substantially, require one camera/lens, and not need performers for the top half. fewer variables
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#16 Tim Tyler

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 01:19 PM

Thunky - This is a Real Name forum.

Please update your Display Name now.
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#17 Brian Alan

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 02:30 PM

since the one half image is just going to be the ceiling, couldn't you do them separately then merge in post (which you'd be doing anyway). thatd simplify the rig substantially, require one camera/lens, and not need performers for the top half. fewer variables

Yes I could do that. However I will have the rig already, so I might as well just use it.


The idea of the bevel is more appealing to me because it would let me choose a lens that can open up a little more then the 3.5 the hartblei would allow for (but that lens does interest me I have loved some of the images I have seen it can produce). That would be easier too control.

If I use enough light to get a good exposure at 3.5 it would take away from the light that the LED's kick off and I wouldn't have the nice circle of light around the couch I'm going for. I'm trying to figure out how to make that area really glow nicely so thats one more thing I need to consider. This is going to be a bit of a "rubin goldberg" kind of thing.
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#18 Brian Alan

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 03:02 PM

Thunky - This is a Real Name forum.

Please update your Display Name now.

I was kinda liking my alter-ego. :)
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#19 Brian Alan

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 03:20 PM

Sorry for the triple post, I notice it looks like Ron Frick did have a few shots that looked like they were being slowly shifted but I think it's also that play on light effect that makes everything look like it warps a little, so beautiful. He has such interesting shots, man 70mm...
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