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Mixing sync sound and a record


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#1 James collins

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 11:07 AM

Hello,

What I am trying to do is mix a sync recording, with a recording of a record. I have sync sound of a dog barking and I wanted to add a song from a record player. I am working on a print and it will be the last scene.

The equipment I have. A nagar tape recorder. A sync tape recording with picture to go with it. A record player with RCA output. A boss Roland br-800 digital recorder mixer. And a mag film recorder. I am looking into cables and adaptors this is where I could use some help.

I thought there are probably several ways I could accomplish this. Like I could hook up my nagar to my mixer and my record player to my mixer and then record a mix of the too recordings and then output that to my mag tape recorder?

But one question I have is will I lose the crystal sync if I run my tape recorder into my mixer? I thought for this particular scene absolute sync isn't critical. But would be nice and definitely in the future would be nice. I think when I normally resolve, I send the sync signal to my mag film recorder via a plug. But my digital recorder doesent have this plug? If sync isn't necessary can I just leave this plug unplugged when sending audio to my mag tape recorder? And how would I go RCA left and right into my mag tape recorder? I think I normally go sound output, fully floating on my nagra banana plugs to the mag tape recorder?

I also thought of plugging my mixer into my nagra, and then I could mix the record and record it onto my nagra and resolve as I normally would. But my original sync recording is on my nagra. And I only have one nagra. I do have a tanberg reel-to-reel, but again if I put the sync recording on my reel-to-reel I think I would lose sync. But again let's say sync isn't necessary. How would I go RCA left and right into line in on my nagra, that is where I think I need adaptors or cables. But I don't know if they make RCA to 6-pin Tuchel, for example? According to a book I have on the nagra the acc socket can be used for a line input for a mixer. Their is also banana line input, but I don't know if I can connect RCA left and right to banana plugs, or if I would even want to? I also thought of basically using one of the xlr mic inputs to either feed my mixer or record player into. Like let's say if I planned a scene of people talking and had I mike in one xlr and my record player in another start the scene and then while the people are talking start the record and use the nagra to mix. But that is just an idea, can't really help me now but maybe in the future.

I also thought of a and b ing the audio and let the lab mix it. I think I would have to have black leader, and then I would have a second sound track. Then I would just need to figure out how to hook up my record player to my nagra. And then resolve that as usual.

One of my big questions is regarding my RCA left and right sound outputs, both my record player and digital recorder/mixer have RCA left and right sound output? Is it possible to hook those outputs into my nagra or mag tape recorder? Do I need to worry about mono( I think I can set my recorder for mono record, and the record I have is monophonic)?

Any help or info would be appreciated. Like I said I am almost ready to send my film with audio to a lab to have a print made, but I want to mix a record with a sync recording on the last scene. I have never done this and just wondered if anyone knew the best way to do this?
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#2 dan kessler

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 01:46 PM

Hm, this is a little confusing.

You say you have a print. Okay, does that mean you have cut your soundtrack
the old way, on mag film, to match your workprint?

If so, then you should have separate mag tracks for dialogue, effects, music, etc.
Any syncing would be accomplished by physically cutting or repositioning the mag tape
in a gang synchronizer to match the picture.

You or someone else will do an interlock mix from those tracks, prior to sending
it off to the lab for an optical track and marriage to your picture.

Or, if you were cutting the film online, you wouldn't have mag tracks, but you would
still have separate tracks that you could edit, then mix out.

Is this what you are doing? Trying to patch gear together as you are describing
doesn't make sense to me, otherwise.
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#3 James collins

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 02:31 PM

Thanks for the reply.

One thing I should mention my tape recorder is a nagra 4.2

I am using a mag tape recorder. And even if I did have two audio tracks. I still have a problem of recording the record player. Can I go from RCA left and right to mono banana plugs? I talked to a guy who said I could buy a set of banana plugs from radio shack, and cut a pair of RCA cables at one end and then it would be easy to put the wires to the banana plugs? But I have never done anything like this. My record player has RCA left and right out. If I cut just one of the RCA cables and solder to the correct banana plug could that work?

Question if you have two audio tracks, do you a + b like you would picture? Like the sound of the song will be at the end of the film? Would I just use black leader up to where the record comes in?

I am in the process of editing, I have a roll of picture and a roll of sync sound taken from my nagra and resolved on a mag tape recorder. I still have the field recording of the audio for the last scene.
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#4 dan kessler

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 06:02 PM

The Nagra 4.2 is fine, the workhorse of film sound until digital took over,
but that isn't really the issue here. Sure, you could record your music
onto the Nagra, or straight onto your mag recorder, for that matter.
Your original is the album, in this case.

As far as your stereo output into mono is concerned, why don't you use
your mixing board?

The Nagra was typically used to record voice in sync with the film camera.
The sound was then transferred to mag film. The mag film is what you cut
and mix from, not the Nagra 1/4"

What you call a + b is the right idea for cutting mag tracks. All the gaps
between sound takes are filled with leader. Not black leader, but white,
and make sure you splice it so the base runs over the heads, not the emulsion.

A lot of books and articles have been written on the fine art of sound cutting
and mixing. Time to dig into them.

Edited by dan kessler, 20 April 2012 - 06:04 PM.

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#5 Brian Drysdale

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 01:54 PM

I am using a mag tape recorder. And even if I did have two audio tracks. I still have a problem of recording the record player. Can I go from RCA left and right to mono banana plugs? I talked to a guy who said I could buy a set of banana plugs from radio shack, and cut a pair of RCA cables at one end and then it would be easy to put the wires to the banana plugs? But I have never done anything like this. My record player has RCA left and right out. If I cut just one of the RCA cables and solder to the correct banana plug could that work?


You can buy a RCA stereo to mono converter if you don't feel happy about doing the wiring yourself. You just connect the banana plugs to the mono output wires. I believe Radio Shack sells them.
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#6 Freya Black

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 06:03 AM

This does seem really confused.

I think the nagra is not crystal sync by the sound of things?
It sounds like you may be using pilot tone, hence the extra cable to resolve the audio.
If the nagra was crystal it wouldn't need to be resolved.

You need to feed the pilotone wherever you normally feed that (sounds like you normally feed that into the mag recorder?) This has to be connected or your audio will not get resolved. I'm guessing the mag recorder has two inputs, one for audio and one for the pilotone signal. I think you may get away with the following:

nagra pilot tone to mag recorder.
nagra audio out to mixer
music recording to mixer
mixer output to mag recorder audio in

You say the mixer is stereo so you will need to choose one channel of the stereo mixer. Lets say the left channel. So the left channel of the audio out on the mixer goes to the mag recorder audio in and the channels of the mixer that you have audio on should have their pan settings set to hard left. All other pan settings for the unused channels should be set to hard right.

This should mean that your sync recording gets resolved but that everything else fed into the mixer also gets resolved. However as none of the other stuff is in sync, I'm guessing it won't matter that much if it gets resolved. It may change the pitch of your music slightly but maybe it won't be noticable. Obviously I'm guessing all this, so you won't know unless you try it I guess!

love

Freya
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#7 Freya Black

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 06:24 AM

Hello,


I thought there are probably several ways I could accomplish this. Like I could hook up my nagar to my mixer and my record player to my mixer and then record a mix of the too recordings and then output that to my mag tape recorder?


No that won't work.

It might be possible to record the pilot tone to the digital recorder on one of the channels in some way but personally I would avoid it. You need to see if you can just use the boss thing as a mixer and not record the audio at all but just to pass it through to the master outputs, like I described above.

The output from the nagra needs to be resolved. Hopefully the mixer can easily mix the nagra audio out with the record player audio out live (without introducing any digital delay) and you can just feed the pilot signal right into the mag recorder which will resolve the entire mixed audio signal.

love

Freya
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#8 Freya Black

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 06:24 AM

Weird double posting. Sorry.

Edited by Freya Black, 29 April 2012 - 06:26 AM.

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#9 Mark Dunn

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 06:30 AM

You do indeed a&b the sound as you do picture, with leader (or junk film, which is cheaper), ar spacer. Each sound roll is then the same length as the picture roll. That way levels can be set individually for each roll. Otherwise you'd have to changes levels across a cut, which is impossible. Just make sure that the spacer is cut in base to the sound head, not emulsion, which could scrape off and clog the head. Sound splices use the diagonal blade so that you get a very quick mix rather than an abrupt cut.
A&B could be c,d, as many rolls as needed. Even the simplest fictional narrative might have half a dozen or more- two dialogue, one atmos, one spot effects, two music and so on. They are combined in the mix.

Edited by Mark Dunn, 29 April 2012 - 06:32 AM.

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#10 Freya Black

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 06:31 AM

You can buy a RCA stereo to mono converter if you don't feel happy about doing the wiring yourself. You just connect the banana plugs to the mono output wires. I believe Radio Shack sells them.


When you say banana plugs, do you really mean bannana plugs or do you mean 1/4 inch jacks?
For the latter, it's easy to find these adaptors on ebay:

http://www.ebay.co.u...=item416041bd24

Older audio stuff can sometimes have strange audio connections tho, so maybe you really do mean bannana plugs?

love

Freya
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#11 Brian Drysdale

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 09:06 AM

Older audio stuff can sometimes have strange audio connections tho, so maybe you really do mean bannana plugs?


The Nagra 4.2 uses banana plugs. The only 1/4" jack is for the headphones.

Edited by Brian Drysdale, 01 May 2012 - 09:06 AM.

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