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Canon 814 AutoZoom w/ Vision3 500T metering


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#1 Robert Kowalski

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Posted 29 April 2012 - 10:35 PM

I will be shooting Vision3 500T on my Canon 814 AutoZoom. I will not be using an external light meter, and from my understanding the 500T cartridges from Kodak are not notched, therefore I am not sure exactly how my camera will read them. I've read a lot of conflicting opinions on this, but the consensus seems to indicate that my camera will automatically over-expose the 500T cartridge by 1 and 2/3 stop...

Is this correct? If so, do I simply adjust my meter up after i meter it on auto?
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#2 Chris Burke

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 09:50 AM

there are two cameras that are called 814 autozoom, one is the autozoom electronic the other is not. The earlier model, the plain 814 autozoom defaults to 160 ASA with out a notch, with a notch it meters at 250. Whether or not this is suitable for your needs it hard to say. What is the scene? how do you want it to look? 7219 is an extremely flexible stock. Here is a link to a test I shot with that stock on a Sankyo 255 xl. I shot in complete auto mode to see what I would get.
Firstly, I would not use the internal 85 filter at all. It is probably severely degraded and will degrade your image as well. The film emulsion has tons of color latitude, so during the transfer, all colors can be manipulated/changed to how you want them.

Secondly, if your camera exposes the scene at 160 or 250, I would not change a thing. Super 8 negative loves to be overexposed. So one stop or so over is no big deal, in fact it is a good thing.

Thirdly, if you are a total newbee and really can't deal or don't want to deal with technical stuff, shoot a test roll with all your setups in full auto(just put the film in the camera and shoot). You'll get an idea of how the camera is metering. I really would not trust the internal meter until you do a test. 7219 has probably the most exposure latitude of any film stock made to date. I don't know what your going for, but this film stock makes it very easy to get almost any shot. It doesn't have that much grain, even pushed one stop, given it's speed and that it is super 8. Outdoors on a sunny day, it is going to sizzle, but that can be really cool as well. I have heard of a film that was shot on 7219 in super 16 something like 6 + stops over in the desert with full on sun and it looked amazing. If you are outdoor in sunny weather, try the 7213. Why are you not using a spot meter? It can make your film look phenominal.
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#3 Mark Dunn

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 11:06 AM

It's not a good idea to leave tungsten stock completely uncorrected. Reds will then be severely underexposed, and therefore grainy, in daylight, and blues likewise overexposed. (I think that's the right way round, David?).
Even if the integral filter is in poor condition, and being internal there's no reason it should be, you can use a screw-on.
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#4 Chris Burke

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:57 PM

It's not a good idea to leave tungsten stock completely uncorrected. Reds will then be severely underexposed, and therefore grainy, in daylight, and blues likewise overexposed. (I think that's the right way round, David?).
Even if the integral filter is in poor condition, and being internal there's no reason it should be, you can use a screw-on.

Absolutely, the best way is to use a screw on filter, but most do not. So the easiest way without cutting a knotch in the cartridge is to not worry about it. The reason the internal filter most likely is crap is that is a made of gelatin, not glass and it is 30 to 40 years old. 7219 or 7213 uncorrected in daylight is NO BIG DEAL. The colors while a bit muted, are fine and perfectly acceptable. You can bring the saturation up in the tk. Severely over exposed or underexposed color channels is not the case with this stock, it is very flexible and forgiving in many color temps. I have shot it with daylight, tungsten, tungsten CFLs and LEDs all in the shot and I got excellent results.
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#5 Robert Kowalski

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 11:35 PM

there are two cameras that are called 814 autozoom, one is the autozoom electronic the other is not. The earlier model, the plain 814 autozoom defaults to 160 ASA with out a notch, with a notch it meters at 250. Whether or not this is suitable for your needs it hard to say. What is the scene? how do you want it to look? 7219 is an extremely flexible stock. Here is a link to a test I shot with that stock on a Sankyo 255 xl. I shot in complete auto mode to see what I would get.
Firstly, I would not use the internal 85 filter at all. It is probably severely degraded and will degrade your image as well. The film emulsion has tons of color latitude, so during the transfer, all colors can be manipulated/changed to how you want them.

Secondly, if your camera exposes the scene at 160 or 250, I would not change a thing. Super 8 negative loves to be overexposed. So one stop or so over is no big deal, in fact it is a good thing.

Thirdly, if you are a total newbee and really can't deal or don't want to deal with technical stuff, shoot a test roll with all your setups in full auto(just put the film in the camera and shoot). You'll get an idea of how the camera is metering. I really would not trust the internal meter until you do a test. 7219 has probably the most exposure latitude of any film stock made to date. I don't know what your going for, but this film stock makes it very easy to get almost any shot. It doesn't have that much grain, even pushed one stop, given it's speed and that it is super 8. Outdoors on a sunny day, it is going to sizzle, but that can be really cool as well. I have heard of a film that was shot on 7219 in super 16 something like 6 + stops over in the desert with full on sun and it looked amazing. If you are outdoor in sunny weather, try the 7213. Why are you not using a spot meter? It can make your film look phenominal.


I have the Canon 814 Auto Zoom, not the electronic. I'm going to be using the 500T only indoors, in uncontrolled light however. I'm shooting a band in a recording studio and it's going to be guerilla style documentary.

The only reason I'm not using a spot meter is because I don't have to money to buy it prior to this shoot, which is a total bummer. Also, ridiculously enough, i don't have the time to shoot a test roll with the camera. I'm going in totally blind. BUT, if my camera will meter it at 160 ASA, any idea what that means in terms of exposure. How much will the camera's meter over-expose and would it be suitable simply to adjust it a stop or two up?

Also, I've downloaded a free light meter app for my iphone and I've been given a few admonitions for even daring to suggest that i'd use it, but others say it's not so bad.
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#6 Matt Stevens

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 08:52 AM

The iPhone light meter is actually decent. it's not spot on, but close. AT times it will be accurate.

Overexposing 500t is not in any way a problem. I have done it and the image I ended up with was quite nice. grainy, but nice. You really don't have to worry. Vision3 500t is what I call stupid proof. :D

By the way, properly exposed and lit 500t will look miles better than overexposed and improperly lit 500t. No doubt. And whoever does the transfer is key. I would recommend LIGHTPRESS.

Edited by Matt Stevens, 04 May 2012 - 08:53 AM.

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#7 jeff mahfoud

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 04:31 PM

Hello, I figured I'd ask here rather than start a new thread since my questions are very much related.

-Using the Canon 1014(E) Autozoom Electric, how should I compensate for both Vision 3 500t and 200t?

-Firstly, I'm under the impression that 500t will be read as 400t on my specific camera model, is this correct?

-Second, I'm under the (uncertain) impression that 200t will be read as either 160t or 250t, which is correct if any?

-Third, is my 85 filter automatically engaged with these tungsten stocks or not?

-And finally, let's say I'm correct in my assumption of 500t being read as 400t (tell me if I'm wrong please!), one quick n' dirty solution seems to be to take the reading in full auto mode and let's say I get 5.6 (trigger slightly depressed), I switch to manual aperture control and close it down to an f8 (less than 1 2/3rds, I realize)...are my calculations correct? Would this provide for a better image straight out of the camera?


Any advice is greatly appreciated, thank you.
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#8 jeff mahfoud

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 07:43 AM

thanks for the help :s
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#9 Juan Carlos Montero Tudose

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 08:25 AM

I have a Canon Autozoom 814 (as well as a 814XL Electronic) and I'm thinking about using the Vision3 500T.

What if I notch the cartridge all the way down to make the camera read it as, say 640T/400D ASA?





Posted Image




Would I then have a more reliable metering?

Thanks.





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Edited by Juan Carlos Montero Tudose, 08 December 2012 - 08:27 AM.

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#10 Chris Burke

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 09:34 AM

you would be underexposing by one third of a stop by doing that. With Vision 3, it is no big deal. I would rather notch it for 400, that way you get almost the full speed of the film while over exposing 1/3 for safety.
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#11 Juan Carlos Montero Tudose

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 10:00 AM

Chris,

thanks for the reply!

This makes me think that notching the cartridge manually isn't that unorthodox... :D


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#12 David Cunningham

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 02:26 PM

Juan,

The only problem with this that 814 Autozoom (unmodified) will not ready higher than 250 ASA Tungsten. See this:

http://www.super8dat...14_autozoom.htm

So, you will over exposing by one full stop no matter how big a notch you put in. However, this is not as bad as it sounds. You may hardly notice it. The only thing you might loose is bright highlights. But, in auto-exposure mode, the 814 is going to be more sensitive to bright and close your iris down anyhow. If anything, you might just get a bump in your shadow highlights. I usually like to over expose 500T 2/3 to one full stop anyhow. With 500T, safer to be over than under.

The electronic will read up to 400, about 1/3 over (give or take).

In fact, I'm not aware of any cameras that ever had the 400/640 (daylight/tungsten) specification. Anyone?

I believe willard engineering and/or Pro8mm can modify your 814AZ to read up to 400 if you want to be more accurate.

Dave
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#13 David Cunningham

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 02:29 PM

Oh, one other thing that is fun to do with a camera capable of reading at 400 is to cut the notch to 400 on a 100D cartridge. Expose it as 400 and then push two stops. The results are grainy and more contrasty, but it gives you a high speed 400 reversal stock. Just for fun. :) Definitely not unorthodox to tweak the notching.
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#14 Chris Burke

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 11:18 AM

The Nizo 6080 will meter up to 640
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#15 Juan Carlos Montero Tudose

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 04:11 PM

David,

I'll need a ND fllter to preserve details in the highlights, right?

Being in Italy, sending my 814AZ overseas for modification is not an option.


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#16 David Cunningham

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 08:17 AM

Sorry... forgot to reply to this.

An ND filter may be helpful outdoors with 500T. But, not necessary as the 85 filter will take care of some of that and the 500T latitude is fantastic. I doubt you'll find a Super 8 scanner that will pull that little bit of extra bright highlight detail that you might get with the ND filter.

In a VERY bright situation, the ND filter might help sharpness by allowing you to open your aperture a bit more. The aperture stopped way down on the 814 does cause some diffraction that will reduce sharpness. But, you also don't want to open it up too much unless you want shallow depth of field. The more open it gets, the less depth of field you have.

Dave
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#17 Matthew W. Phillips

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 01:25 PM

I dont know why so many S8 shooters are averse to manual metering? I have said it before and Ill say it again, using the internal meter will always yield bad "home movie" results because of the constant exposure adjustments. You are better off using a constant exposure so your light doesnt flicker when you have it transfered. Think of it this way: Imagine you edited your footage frame-by-frame and then applied a different brightness level to each frame and then put the frames back together into a clip. You will get uneven lighting and flicker. Peeople dont think it happens that way because the meter adjust on the fly. But the look and effect it has is exactly that.

Not to mention, if you want Super 8 to look the best it can, you need to overexpose that negative by a little to make it rich. Or you can even get creative and do incident metering (my fav) which can give nice results on your subject. The point and shoot thing is so amateurish and not unlike many camcorder shooters these days.
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#18 Zac Fettig

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 02:00 PM

I don't know about anyone else, but I know I prefer automatic metering in Super 8 because it makes it more likely to get the shot.

I shoot on a Canon 814 AZE. I have several other S8 cameras (like a GAF Anscomatic), but that's the best one I own. If I manually meter it, it tends to drift. A lot. The aperture is controlled, when in manual, by a little rubber wheel inside the camera. A wheel that's over 30 years old now, and degraded to hell. If I set it at F2.0, I'll watch as it jumps around, sometimes several stops. On automatic, it's very smooth.

When I shoot it, I mostly use Vision3 500T. Which it meters as 400T, so it overexposes it about 1/3 stop. It's not ideal, but certainly within what the film is capable of.

If I had a Beaulieu or Leicina Special (I can dream), I'd set everything off the light meter, like I do if shooting R8 or 16mm.

Plus, light fading is part of the charm of S8. They spent a fortune to duplicate it when the made the movie within a movie for "Super 8." It's meant to be shot run and gun style. There's no pressure plate. The film jitters, a LOT more than regular 8 or 16mm.

Vision3 has something like 11 to 13 stops of latitude. I just throw an 85B filter on the front of the 814, with a step ring, disable the built in filter, and let it run on auto. No problems.

When I want to get precise image control, I shoot on 16mm.

Anyways, that's my 2 cents.
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#19 David Cunningham

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Posted 14 December 2012 - 09:33 PM

I don't know about anyone else, but I know I prefer automatic metering in Super 8 because it makes it more likely to get the shot.


90% of the time I use the automatic meter to get my base reading, panning around to the shadows. Then, I switch to manual and lock the aperture. Rarely do I leave it on fully automatic and that's usually only with reversal when I know I'm going to pan from bright to dark.


I shoot on a Canon 814 AZE. I have several other S8 cameras (like a GAF Anscomatic), but that's the best one I own. If I manually meter it, it tends to drift. A lot. The aperture is controlled, when in manual, by a little rubber wheel inside the camera. A wheel that's over 30 years old now, and degraded to hell. If I set it at F2.0, I'll watch as it jumps around, sometimes several stops. On automatic, it's very smooth.


Very common. You know that can be fixed, right? Either Pro8mm (http://www.pro8mm.com) or Willard Engineering (http://willardengineering.com) should be able to take care of that.

When I shoot it, I mostly use Vision3 500T. Which it meters as 400T, so it overexposes it about 1/3 stop. It's not ideal, but certainly within what the film is capable of.


I actually find that quite ideal. Vision3 500T 1/3 or even 2/3 over (especially if you don't have really bright highlights) is ideal for reducing grain without loosing bright highlights while accentuating dark ones. I always aim for over and try desperately do avoid under.


Plus, light fading is part of the charm of S8. They spent a fortune to duplicate it when the made the movie within a movie for "Super 8." It's meant to be shot run and gun style. There's no pressure plate. The film jitters, a LOT more than regular 8 or 16mm.


It also happens that the movie within the movie really was shot on Super 8. Compared to the rest of the production, I bet it didn't cost that much.


Vision3 has something like 11 to 13 stops of latitude. I just throw an 85B filter on the front of the 814, with a step ring, disable the built in filter, and let it run on auto. No problems.


Yeah, even with those now out of calibration (and never really good in the first place) light meters, Vision3 negative looks fantastic. Shooting reversal is when you most need to avoid automatic metering.


When I want to get precise image control, I shoot on 16mm.


And I find I'm not that good at it. :)

Anyways, that's my 2 cents.


And mine in return.
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#20 Matt Stevens

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 08:37 AM

Good points.

By the way, All of the Super8 8mm footage that required any vfx were shot on 16mm after ILM said "We cannot hope to replicate the grain pattern."
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