Jump to content


Photo

Re-framing, zooming, panning in post with motion picture film


  • Please log in to reply
6 replies to this topic

#1 Robert Costello

Robert Costello
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 62 posts
  • Cinematographer

Posted 25 June 2012 - 01:31 PM

Hello,

With a lot of digital work that I have been doing I find myself re-framing for better cuts as well as zooming and panning in post.
I like the effects and I am not too concerned about loss of quality with scaling...

My question is, is there a technique or precedent to do this when optically printing motion picture film? ie, zooming or panning or reframing the moving-image somewhat like a Rostrum camera might do with stills?

I can't seem to find any info with the available keywords or books I have...

If so, are there any notable films that do that ?
I am looking to study other uses of the technique that predate the ability to do it digitally.

Thanks!
  • 0

#2 David Mullen ASC

David Mullen ASC
  • Sustaining Members
  • 19765 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles

Posted 25 June 2012 - 03:02 PM

Sure it could be done on an optical printer, it just wasn't done much because the results weren't very good... You can only enlarge a film frame a certain amount before the enlarged grain gets distracting. Wasn't the last shot in "400 Blows" both a freeze frame and a zoom in? Certainly the last few shots in the original "Planet of the Apes" has some optical printer zooms in it, but (SPOILER) for the last shot of the Statue of Liberty, the optical printer zoom was the only way to add a zoom into a shot composited with a matte painting in an optical printer.

Personally I am opposed to post reframing of shots except to fix mistakes, I don't believe one can zoom into a carefully composed frame and somehow magically create another carefully composed frame... Generally the technique just reinforces the modern tendency to make a movie into a bunch of close-ups.

If you want to read about a really difficult optical printer effect involving a freeze frame and a zoom out, read about the last shot in "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid". They didnt want a really grainy enlargement so they had to figure out how to composite a frozen frame into a larger still photograph and then optically zoom out to see the whole frame.
  • 0

#3 Chris Millar

Chris Millar
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1642 posts
  • Other

Posted 25 June 2012 - 06:16 PM

I think it's called 'special effects techniques' or similar - very good book that had has a few updated editions over the decades. Covers all of this and more.
  • 0

#4 Brian Drysdale

Brian Drysdale
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 5070 posts
  • Cinematographer

Posted 25 June 2012 - 06:50 PM

I think it's called 'special effects techniques' or similar - very good book that had has a few updated editions over the decades. Covers all of this and more.


I guess this is "The Technique of Special Effects Cinematography" by Raymond Fielding.
  • 0

#5 Leo Anthony Vale

Leo Anthony Vale
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2010 posts
  • Other
  • Pittsburgh PA

Posted 25 June 2012 - 09:08 PM

Posted Image

One of the most famous and iconic matte shots in movie history, and one that Kosa will always be remembered for, as he died shortly after this film was finished. At top left is the original art directors conceptual drawing of the big reveal, with other photos showing the original location plate and William Creber with the final effect composite. The one failing of this shot is the awful, grainy, 'mechanised' optical printer zoom out which mars the effect considerably.

from:
http://nzpetesmattes...1&by-date=false

Sure it could be done on an optical printer, it just wasn't done much because the results weren't very good... You can only enlarge a film frame a certain amount before the enlarged grain gets distracting. Wasn't the last shot in "400 Blows" both a freeze frame and a zoom in? Certainly the last few shots in the original "Planet of the Apes" has some optical printer zooms in it, but (SPOILER) for the last shot of the Statue of Liberty, the optical printer zoom was the only way to add a zoom into a shot composited with a matte painting in an optical printer.


Sam Fuller used optical zooms alot. Not for actual zooms, pulling out close ups.
One I pparticulary recall is 'Run of the Arrow' in Suerscope and color with Rod steiger trying to pull a southern accent.
Those optical close ups were grainy.

'Unknown World' also used optical CUs inside the boring machine. Irving Block and Jack Rabin produced the movie in addition to doing the efffects. Needless to say, it was a cheapie.
  • 0

#6 Chris Millar

Chris Millar
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1642 posts
  • Other

Posted 25 June 2012 - 10:55 PM

I guess this is "The Technique of Special Effects Cinematography" by Raymond Fielding.


That's the one (cheers for that, limited net access at the moment to search it up) - I have a copy of the second to last edition, figured I was only interested in the old techniques anyway (at the time)



  • 0

#7 Jock Blakley

Jock Blakley
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 73 posts
  • Other
  • Melbourne, VIC

Posted 01 July 2012 - 09:06 PM

Technically awful, but I've always adored the final shot of the rocket motor at the end of KOYAANISQATSI. It started as 16mm NASA footage anyway, blow-up to 35mm and cropped to 1.85, then it cuts to an optical zoom-in, then a further zoom, and then they start to multiple-print frames until it's almost a freeze-frame.

The end result is a snowstorm of grain juddering all over the screen which illustrates why it should never be done unless absolutely necessary, but naturally it's perfect in that film :P
  • 0


CineLab

Visual Products

Technodolly

Ritter Battery

Paralinx LLC

Willys Widgets

Metropolis Post

Wooden Camera

rebotnix Technologies

Abel Cine

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

The Slider

Opal

CineTape

Aerial Filmworks

Rig Wheels Passport

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

FJS International, LLC

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Tai Audio

Glidecam

Paralinx LLC

Rig Wheels Passport

FJS International, LLC

Technodolly

Aerial Filmworks

Metropolis Post

The Slider

Tai Audio

CineTape

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Abel Cine

Ritter Battery

Willys Widgets

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

CineLab

Glidecam

Opal

rebotnix Technologies

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Visual Products

Wooden Camera