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#1 Phil Thompson

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 12:05 AM

Hello all,

I'm shooting a scene next Sunday. It's mostly in a kitchen area. As you can see from the pictures below. It's a less than inspiring spot. We have a bathroom which looks a bit interesting, as it's blue etc. We're shooting with me new Arri-3 on 160T. What you can't see in the shot are two very large windows in the lounge area. It's supposed to be during the day. I was thinking of getting a 2K arri up high to the left, bottom right, aiming it towards the kitchen area with a stand holding a scrim, and maybe have it shine through something to give it window shadow effect painted over the kitchen. I was thinking of bouncing a 600W inside the toilet to paint that area. We have our actor in the kitchen. Was thinking of a light head height, diffused facing her. That top area, using colored bottles to make it look more interesting, lots of props, flowers, pictures, mirrors, glasses with liquids etc. I may also have access to only one prime. In which case should i go for a 35mm prime?

Anyone help me out. I want this to look super slick.

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Edited by phil thompson, 06 July 2012 - 12:06 AM.

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#2 Jaron Berman

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 03:07 AM

The best advice, as always, is do your homework. Have you scouted that location throughout the day? Simply knowing sunrise and sunset hours isn't enough if you don't have the means/budget to completely control daylight all day, so knowing what path the sun will follow, how the intensity drops or increases in each space / what direction the light coming through tracks - all VERY important to know when you're planning to shoot in that space. Also know that your units - 2k and 600 are gonna be tungsten (3200K ish) and the light through the windows will be some combination of daylight (4800k - 10,000k avg. 5600-5800k) and whatever paint it's bouncing off of. If you're intending to control the brightness of it throughout the day as well as match it to the lights you have/can afford, then a good place to start would be with those windows - 85 gel or 85n gel (n being ND in different strengths). If you're not looking directly out the windows, one possibility would be to gel them 85n3 then keep cuts of various strengths of ND gel or nets on standby to surf the brightness of the day as the light wanes. The photos make the windows look small, so shouldn't be a whole ton of film.

For this kind of thing I always repeat myself - see what you get for free. If you have a DSLR, shoot some photos throughout the day and start getting an idea of what light you want to flag/cut and what light you want to add. A 2k through anything isn't gonna have a lot of kick compared to that daylight without some balance.... so start by metering the room and seeing how much of what's already there you can shape. And shoot master scene - get ALL your wides done while you can control the room light, then when you go for coverage you can at least limit the amount of space you need to light/control.


Lens choice is a very personal thing, esp. if you're only given one. I love 32-35mm lenses, but some people don't. They're a little wide for true closeups in a "traditional" sense, but that's not a rule and it may suit your look. I know guys that do CU's on 21mm's! 35 can still be flattering... again - get a DSLR like a T3i or D60 or 7D and shoot some test shots in the space - play around with a zoom lens and look at the different focal lengths you have to choose from of that prime set, see which you can live with for both masters and CU's.

And don't forget production design! Seven, for example, would have been a much different film if Khondji had nowhere to throw light. Slick or whatever look you're going for - make sure the "set" itself helps.
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#3 Phil Thompson

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 07:58 AM

Thanks for that long and detailed post Jason. The windows that are visible are small. But if you see the second photo. The one
with the man. There are two HUGE long windows. Geling those would be impossible. Would it make more sense to black those out?
This would mean the only visible daylight would be the window at the top, and I think a good way to deal with that would be to get weird
colord bottles etc in front of some 85 gel. Same for the bathroom. I've been told in terms of lighting to get a good High light and bounce it
into the ceiling. Keep it simple style. Sound like a good idea?
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#4 Freya Black

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 05:09 AM

Yowch! Can you repaint the walls at all?

Maybe some kind of shelving or something to fill the white void space?

love

Freya
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#5 Tim O'Connor

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 11:47 AM

Thanks for that long and detailed post Jason. The windows that are visible are small. But if you see the second photo. The one
with the man. There are two HUGE long windows. Geling those would be impossible. Would it make more sense to black those out?
This would mean the only visible daylight would be the window at the top, and I think a good way to deal with that would be to get weird
colord bottles etc in front of some 85 gel. Same for the bathroom. I've been told in terms of lighting to get a good High light and bounce it
into the ceiling. Keep it simple style. Sound like a good idea?




Do you have to shoot 160T? What if you put an 85 on the camera and worked with the daylight? If you have to CTB some of your tungsten lights,
they'll be cut a lot but if you're getting a good base exposure with the natural light, then maybe your tungsten lights would be primarily for small
important areas, cleaning up faces, etc. and that would be enough?
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#6 Phil Thompson

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 05:32 AM

Hi Tim,

Nope, we can shoot with 250D. I've now being told we have access to HMI's - I've never worked with these lights before. Are HMI's the same temperature as Daylight? Damm I need to get clued up about HMI's.
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#7 Freya Black

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 07:12 AM

Hi Tim,

Nope, we can shoot with 250D. I've now being told we have access to HMI's - I've never worked with these lights before. Are HMI's the same temperature as Daylight? Damm I need to get clued up about HMI's.


HMI's are daylight balanced. Theres actually a few options in the way of daylight balanced lighting. Kino-flo's can have daylight tubes added etc, but if theres plenty of light from the windows, then maybe that will even be enough depending on what kind of a look you are going for. I guess there could be issues with continuity of lighting if using the sunlight but I'm sue it could be made to work with some planning. Depends what the film is like I guess.

love

Freya
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#8 Eric Jaspers

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 10:30 AM

Damm I need to get clued up about HMI's.


Because of the constant improvement in HMI technology since they first came out in the 80s there are many versions of HMIs available and if you are not careful you can get stuck. In head design you can choose not only between Fresnel or Par, but also the older double ended globes verses the newer single ended globes. In ballast design you have a choice between magnetic and electronic ballasts; and to complicate matters even more, you have a choice between Power Factor Corrected electronic ballasts and non-Power Factor Corrected electronic ballasts. One of the best resources I have seen that explains the differences in HMIs is and article by Guy Holt on the “Use of Portable Generators in Motion Picture Production” available at http://www.screenlightandgrip.com/html/emailnewsletter_generators.html.

Eric Jaspers
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#9 Tim O'Connor

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 09:25 PM

You'll be pleased when you find out how much light you can get from an HMI compared to the same wattage in a tungsten unit. Something like a 1200w par can be great for a situation such as this; it puts out a ton of light, you can bounce it or diffuse it and you can plug it into the wall (just give yourself a 20A circuit.) Rental houses can help you become familiar with a light and its set-up; it's okay to be the DP and say hey, just never shot with such and such a light before, would you please run through it with me. You can learn more as you use them so don't get overwhelmed with the different kinds. Do keep in mind that you can get flicker if you shoot at certain speeds. If you're going to overcrank, do some research about shooting different speeds with HMIs.
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#10 Phil Thompson

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 05:27 AM

Panavision are lending me this one lens.

ZSS35 - 35MM T1.3 ZEISS DISTAGON (PL)

Thoughts? We've only budget for the one lens. Im now told we have no HMI'S
just 3 x red heads. Im going to put them high and add the blue color correction gel and bounce them onto the ceiling.
Will be plenty enough light for that lens. Was thinking, do you think i should use any filters? I can shoot with
either:

160 Vivid T
250D
250T
500T

I was thinking go with 250D

Good idea?
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#11 Freya Black

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 05:38 AM

Panavision are lending me this one lens.

ZSS35 - 35MM T1.3 ZEISS DISTAGON (PL)

Thoughts? We've only budget for the one lens. Im now told we have no HMI'S
just 3 x red heads. Im going to put them high and add the blue color correction gel and bounce them onto the ceiling.
Will be plenty enough light for that lens. Was thinking, do you think i should use any filters? I can shoot with
either:

160 Vivid T
250D
250T
500T

I was thinking go with 250D

Good idea?


That's a shame. You loose a lot of light gelling tungsten lights blue but if you already have the daylight coming in then that may help it all work, it's just you may find that the tungsten lights are a bit pointless as they are overwhelmed by all the light from the windows.

You lose much more light from CTB than with CTO.

You only need filters on the camera if you are shooting daylight film with tungsten light or tungsten light with daylight film. If you are shooting daylight film with daylight, then you don't really need a colour correction filter on the camera, unless you want to put something milder on there to warm it up or something.

You could of course add other filters if it suited the look you were going for.

love

Freya
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#12 Phil Thompson

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 05:54 AM

Thanks Freya :D

I was thinking of maybe using a pro mist filter. but im scared. It could looks awful.
Maybe i wont. I wanted this scene to be very emotional as basically an old woman gets electrocuted by putting a fork
in the toaster. im gonna do a mad 120fps shot of the toaster sparking then flip it slow mo, have it land on the floor
etc, should be well funny. Gutted we just have the one lens but you know. limitation is good etc etc.

\yeah the redheads will probably do jack. Probably end up using them as an Eye-light. I'll sling one in the bathroom to light that area up more too. Maybe warm it up which a amber gel. that would work right?
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#13 Freya Black

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 06:11 AM

Panavision are lending me this one lens.

ZSS35 - 35MM T1.3 ZEISS DISTAGON (PL)

Thoughts? We've only budget for the one lens. Im now told we have no HMI'S


I think you probably don't want to be wide open even if it does do T1.3

just 3 x red heads. Im going to put them high and add the blue color correction gel and bounce them onto the ceiling.


If all you are going to do is just bounce off the ceiling you could actually go a bit more punk and make use of the available light fixture. I'm not sure but is there a bayonet light fixture on the ceiling? If so buy a paper chinese lantern type thing from Wilkinson (assuming there isn't one in the house somewhere already you can steal!) and then get hold of a daylight balanced CFL lightbulb with a high wattage.

For example:

http://www.ebay.co.u...=item231f653b42

That one is the equivalent of a 200W light bulb and comes with an adpator for edison screw in bayonet fixtures.
Sadly these kind of bulbs are often only available in edison screw...

However here is another bulb with an actual bayonet fitting:

http://www.ebay.co.u...=item2c662f05f1

Yes it's £25 but you can get a bayonet fitting light that runs at 125w! I'm guessing that's something like a 400-500 watt light bulb! Very bright!

...And heres a cheap 36w with bayonet. I'm guessing this is about equiv to 125-150w?

http://www.ebay.co.u...=item27c82a4cbd


Theres lots more out there. They run nice and cool, and if you put them into the chinese lantern you will get a very nice diffuse light. If you are going to Wilkinsons, try and get the largest chinese lantern you can get as the bigger the lantern the more diffuse the light.

love

Freya
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#14 Freya Black

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 06:29 AM

Thanks Freya :D

I was thinking of maybe using a pro mist filter. but im scared. It could looks awful.
Maybe i wont. I wanted this scene to be very emotional as basically an old woman gets electrocuted by putting a fork


Is it emotional or is it funny? Dunno maybe you should stay away from the pro-mist. If you do go for it, I would use a milder one, like maybe 1/4 or 1/8. Otherwise it can start to look otherworldly/wedding photo. ;)

in the toaster. im gonna do a mad 120fps shot of the toaster sparking then flip it slow mo, have it land on the floor
etc, should be well funny. Gutted we just have the one lens but you know. limitation is good etc etc.


If you are planning on shooting 120fps, be sure you have the power for that. Often cameras need a special power set up for handling high speed stuff. Sounds like a difficult effects shot TBH, even without the complication of slo-mo.

yeah the redheads will probably do jack. Probably end up using them as an Eye-light. I'll sling one in the bathroom to light that area up more too. Maybe warm it up which a amber gel. that would work right?


That would be taking the orangey light from the tungsten light and gelling it really orange!
Unless you want the bathroom to look more orangey than the other space, could be a nice contrast but then it will make the kitchen seem colder probably, and I always think of bathrooms in terms of colours like blue. Isn't the bathroom actually painted a nicer colour than the kitchen anyway?

You could gel the light with a slightly less strong blue, like 1/2 CTB and that would also help because it doesn't cut the light down as much. The tungsten lights tend towards warmer anyway so if you don't correct them as much then they give off warmer light relative to the fact you are shooting on daylight stock. Trouble is that you are mixing this light with the daylight.

Could be nice as an eye-light, if you gel it with full CTB, that could work maybe?

love

Freya

Edited by Freya Black, 10 July 2012 - 06:30 AM.

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#15 Phil Thompson

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 07:47 AM

I think you probably don't want to be wide open even if it does do T1.3



If all you are going to do is just bounce off the ceiling you could actually go a bit more punk and make use of the available light fixture. I'm not sure but is there a bayonet light fixture on the ceiling? If so buy a paper chinese lantern type thing from Wilkinson (assuming there isn't one in the house somewhere already you can steal!) and then get hold of a daylight balanced CFL lightbulb with a high wattage.

For example:

http://www.ebay.co.u...=item231f653b42

That one is the equivalent of a 200W light bulb and comes with an adpator for edison screw in bayonet fixtures.
Sadly these kind of bulbs are often only available in edison screw...

However here is another bulb with an actual bayonet fitting:

http://www.ebay.co.u...=item2c662f05f1

Yes it's £25 but you can get a bayonet fitting light that runs at 125w! I'm guessing that's something like a 400-500 watt light bulb! Very bright!

...And heres a cheap 36w with bayonet. I'm guessing this is about equiv to 125-150w?

http://www.ebay.co.u...=item27c82a4cbd


Theres lots more out there. They run nice and cool, and if you put them into the chinese lantern you will get a very nice diffuse light. If you are going to Wilkinsons, try and get the largest Chinese lantern you can get as the bigger the lantern the more diffuse the light.

love

Freya


Thanks for this info. I think the lighting of the house is flush with the ceiling. Which would lead me to believe they are Halogen. How does Halogen mix with Daylight? Yeah the toaster shot sounds complex but it isn't really. Im aware i need two batteries on the arri-3 to achieve the speed. And i set my meter to 120fps to compensate. Its just a pyro charge with sparks then i film it thrown in the air. etc.. be fine.

Yeah i shouldn't use the lens at 1.3 should I. That's bad isnt it? Makes the picture look vignetted. I need to be running the lens at f4 right? For max Res? or Is that all a load of rubbish and 1.3 is actually fine?

The bathroom should be cold, you're right. mmmm I just wanted to create a nice contrast. What color should I make it then?

Edited by phil thompson, 10 July 2012 - 07:47 AM.

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#16 Tim O'Connor

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 10:29 AM

I think that with those lights, you'll be happy to get good eye lighting and some more facial lighting with them, maybe a hair light at some point.
I wouldn't bounce them off of the ceiling, like Freya says, with CTB you won't have much left even going directly. A Chinese lantern be nice too but
you'll probably have to get it fairly close to see a difference, though it might work simply as a reflection glinting
in somebody's eyes.
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#17 Mario C Jackson

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 02:46 PM

My advise would be to redecorate the kitchen to add some interesting dynamic. Afterwards, I would bounce light and use flag and nets to shape as needed. This is a technique I have used many times when shooting with white walls and it has worked well.
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#18 Adam Frisch FSF

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 10:46 PM

You are in the worst scenario possible - practical location with white walls and shitty appliances. It's as bad as it gets.

My advise is to keep light off the walls or anything that might bounce back or fill the room. In these scenarios that normally means going a bit more hard and controllable. Cut light. I would not bounce anything anywhere - the spill will give you more than you want anyway. The obvious is to light from the window in the kitchen, but I would avoid that as it will go everywhere. Have a hard, cut sidelight coming in through the bathroom door instead, towards us. Top chop it so it doesn't go everywhere. In the kitchen window take away light or hand a single kino tube outside, make it look like an enclosed backyard or dingy atrium. Sickly green flourescent tube would add to that parking garage feel and contrast nicely.
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#19 Phil Thompson

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 10:58 AM

hey Thank you Adam for replying with some expert advice.

Firstly we can't get outside, as we're on the 4th floor. I was thinking of setting up colored bottles and stuff to block out the light, make it interesting. This light you mention in the bathroom. How does that work? Have the door open half way and put it behind and point it towards the camera so it shines through the door crack?

I can make the set look interesting by using fabrics, lots of piles of tea bags, crisp packets. Maybe get a massive picture for the wall. that could be funny. Nice huge print. Dunno if thats feasable tho.
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#20 Freya Black

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 11:15 AM

Thanks for this info. I think the lighting of the house is flush with the ceiling. Which would lead me to believe they are Halogen. How does Halogen mix with Daylight?


I think I know the things you mean and yes they might be halogen spots? In which case they are more tungsten balanced I'm afraid.

Yeah i shouldn't use the lens at 1.3 should I. That's bad isnt it? Makes the picture look vignetted. I need to be running the lens at f4 right? For max Res? or Is that all a load of rubbish and 1.3 is actually fine?


I don't think it will cause vignetting but often lenses are a little soft wide open, but hey, if you have to then you have to, just might be best if you can avoid it. ;)

love

Freya
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