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B&W 35mm Short-ends and Re-cans


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#1 Scott Bullock

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 04:41 PM

Hello all,

My partner and I have been buying all of the 35mm B&W short-ends and re-cans that we can find for a project we're doing. I think we've purchased just about everything on the west coast. Can anyone point us in a direction on the east coast or elsewhere? We're about 20,000 feet shy of what we need.

Thanks in advance!
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#2 Scott Bullock

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 04:59 PM

Oh, by the way, we're looking for 5222 primarily but will also use 5231. Any recommendations are greatly appreciated!
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#3 Charles MacDonald

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 06:44 PM

buying all of the 35mm B&W short-ends and re-cans that we can find for a project we're doing. I think we've purchased just about everything on the west coast.


the still Photo guys are going to hate you, I have seen several pleas on APUG.ORG looking for B&W short ends to use in still cameras lately.

Might be over your budget but the ORWO stocks are available new for less than Kodak.
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#4 Scott Bullock

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 07:46 PM

the still Photo guys are going to hate you, I have seen several pleas on APUG.ORG looking for B&W short ends to use in still cameras lately.

Might be over your budget but the ORWO stocks are available new for less than Kodak.


I live to have still photographers made at me. :D Just kidding. Thanks for the lead on ORWO. For the love of Pete, I can't believe we've never come across these folks. We're gonna have to test some of this for sure. In the meantime, the quest for 5222 and 5231 short-ends continues...
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#5 Peter Ferguson

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 09:27 PM

Hello all,

My partner and I have been buying all of the 35mm B&W short-ends and re-cans that we can find for a project we're doing. I think we've purchased just about everything on the west coast. Can anyone point us in a direction on the east coast or elsewhere? We're about 20,000 feet shy of what we need.

Thanks in advance!



Definitely hit up the ORWO N.A, folks, they cut me a deal on a large order too. www.orwona.com. i was short too and they helped me out, plus, the stock was stellar. good luck
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#6 Freya Black

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 10:45 AM

Oh, by the way, we're looking for 5222 primarily but will also use 5231. Any recommendations are greatly appreciated!


Ha Hah! "Will also use 5231"! That stuff has been gold dust for ages now!

love

Freya
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#7 Dirk DeJonghe

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 02:22 PM

I still have a 1000' roll of 5231 (unopened,late emulsion number, always in fridge) leftover from film recording, now switched to the new Fuji B&W RDS film.
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#8 Freya Black

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 05:50 AM

I still have a 1000' roll of 5231 (unopened,late emulsion number, always in fridge) leftover from film recording, now switched to the new Fuji B&W RDS film.


1000ft! Oooooh! You rotter! ;)

I'm curious about these new Fuji films. Could the RDS film be used in camera? How slow is it?

Is it anything like as beautiful as 5231 used to be?

love

Freya

Edited by Freya Black, 02 August 2012 - 05:51 AM.

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#9 Dirk DeJonghe

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 09:58 AM

The new Fuji RDS is strictly a lab film for making digital separation negatives. It has vastly less flare than the corresponding Kodak stock and can be processed in Pos or Neg developer. it only comes in 35mm polyester and is green sensitive only (from memory). They got a deserved Emmy award for it.
What it means in practical terms: you can now shoot colour negative or digital and after Baselight grading, get a recording to RDS from which beautiful B&W prints can be made on 5302. It is a much more modern emulsion than the 5231 or 5234 we were using before and it shows.
Combine high-speed, low-grain, high-latitude modern colour negative stock with modern digital postproduction, scanning and recording and end up with a first class 35mm B&W print.
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#10 Jock Blakley

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 06:20 AM

I wish they'd done that for THE ARTIST instead of the rather-disappointing 1.37-inside-1.85 prints on 2383.
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#11 Dirk DeJonghe

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 07:31 AM

I wish they'd done that for THE ARTIST instead of the rather-disappointing 1.37-inside-1.85 prints on 2383.


Those decisions are not made by the lab or the DoP but by the distributor paying for the prints. B&W print stock is quite a bit more expensive than colour stock these days, and processing is much slower because of much longer wash times and lower temperatures. Also, if you strike a colour intermediate negative you cannot easily make a real B&W print from it for premieres and such.
The 1.37 pillarbox is another compromise because most commercial theatres simply don't have the proper optics and screens to show anything else but 1.85 or 2.35
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#12 Freya Black

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 04:29 PM

The new Fuji RDS is strictly a lab film for making digital separation negatives. It has vastly less flare than the corresponding Kodak stock and can be processed in Pos or Neg developer. it only comes in 35mm polyester and is green sensitive only (from memory). They got a deserved Emmy award for it.
What it means in practical terms: you can now shoot colour negative or digital and after Baselight grading, get a recording to RDS from which beautiful B&W prints can be made on 5302. It is a much more modern emulsion than the 5231 or 5234 we were using before and it shows.
Combine high-speed, low-grain, high-latitude modern colour negative stock with modern digital postproduction, scanning and recording and end up with a first class 35mm B&W print.


I knew it was a lab only film but Fuji seem like they might be more open to selling me some (as opposed to Kodak who refused to sell me lab films). Fuji just seem more supportive and together generally in fact. I didn't know it was only green sensitive which might make it a bit weird in camera but then possibly also interesting. I assume that it will be mega slow tho but have no idea of the ASA. I was also thinking maybe I could make silent contact prints using it as I have a little contact printer here. Although at this point it's not longer a priority for me but something I might like to keep in mind as an option for the future as things develop for me. Sounds like it might be very weird tho! I like a bit of weird now and again tho! ;)

love

Freya
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#13 Scott Bullock

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Posted 01 September 2012 - 07:39 PM

Ha Hah! "Will also use 5231"! That stuff has been gold dust for ages now!

love

Freya



Gold dust? Meaning I should sell all I have as opposed to shooting it? :)

Thanks for the input, folks. It looks like we're gonna go with ORWO to fill the remainder of our needs. If it had been my decision to make, I probably would have shot color negative, regardless of what the end product would be. However, that ship has sailed...

Thank again!
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#14 Charles MacDonald

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 09:28 AM

B&W print stock is quite a bit more expensive than colour stock these days, and processing is much slower because of much longer wash times and lower temperatures.


it can also cause problems on Projection as the image is Silver not dyes, and so it can adsorb more heat from the light. that can make the print wave or become distorted.

50 years ago, the systems were set up to deal with B&W stock, not so these days.
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#15 John Woods

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 03:51 PM

50 years ago, the systems were set up to deal with B&W stock, not so these days.


There are some articles floating around the net talking about the various problems Schindler's List had with projecting true B&W prints. And that was made about 20 years ago!

If you are lucky to see a B&W print today it is just not the same as it was show in the 30s and 40s. Nitrate B&W film looks different from the B&W safety film that replaced it, and those classic films were made to work with old carbon arc projectors that IIRC are about 4400 degrees kelvin. Modern Xenon bulbs are 5500K.

I also recall being told that there are issues for old 16mm prints that were optimized to work with incandescent bulbs for classroom projectors while other prints were made for small 16mm theatres whose projectors used Xenon bulbs.
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#16 Leo Anthony Vale

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 10:19 PM

If you are lucky to see a B&W print today it is just not the same as it was show in the 30s and 40s. Nitrate B&W film looks different from the B&W safety film that replaced it, and those classic films were made to work with old carbon arc projectors that IIRC are about 4400 degrees kelvin. Modern Xenon bulbs are 5500K.


Nitrate film had more silver. This really shows up in prints. The xenon bulbs didn't appear for decades after the introduction of acetate prints.
At the same time as nitrate stock was discontinued, the amount of silver in film was lessened. The means of determining ASA was changed, resulting in a slight increase in speed.

Xenons seem more purple than arcs. There might be a difference between the nitrate and acetate bases, but the big difference was between the amounts of silver in the3 prints and negatives. I suspects this also extends to Technicolor negatives.
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#17 Simon Wyss

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 12:58 AM

Nitrate film had more silver. This really shows up in prints. The xenon bulbs didn't appear for decades after the introduction of acetate prints.
At the same time as nitrate stock was discontinued, the amount of silver in film was lessened. The means of determining ASA was changed, resulting in a slight increase in speed.

Xenons seem more purple than arcs. There might be a difference between the nitrate and acetate bases, but the big difference was between the amounts of silver in the3 prints and negatives. I suspects this also extends to Technicolor negatives.


i) Where do you have this information from, Leo? I don’t think that one was ever able to develop Agfa-Gevaert 5.61 or Eastman 1302 to a density of more than log 3.0 or so. The older prints have a little more contrast.

We also have to discern between low-key and high-key lighting, high key becoming the more important the worse people were during the second World War.


ii) The first commercial run of xenon high-pressure discharge lamps occured in 1954 in a German cinema.


iii) Purple is half red, half blue. I think you mean violet.

After some ozone problems with the first xenon bulbs their glass got lead doted in order to retain the ultraviolet. Ozone is created on the hot surface of the bulb with UV present. Contrary to the ordinary ozone-free xenon bulbs the open high-intensity carbon arc emits a lot of ultraviolet. This is what was once known as cinema glamour, a faint fluorescence of the limewashed screen under the short wave light. Most of the arc’s UV is blocked by the projection lens and the port’s glass.


The hard radiation made the Strong Super Trouper famous.
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#18 Brian Pritchard

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 06:06 AM

i) Where do you have this information from, Leo? I don’t think that one was ever able to develop Agfa-Gevaert 5.61 or Eastman 1302 to a density of more than log 3.0 or so. The older prints have a little more contrast.

According to the Eastman Kodak Book 'Motion Picture Laboratory Practice and Characteristics of Eastman Motion Picture Films' published in 1936 Eastman Positive Motion Picture Film Type 1301 when developed in D16 to a gamma of 2.4, the maximum density was approximately 3.6.

Brian
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#19 Simon Wyss

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 07:46 AM

Really?

3.6 !
That would allow for a contrast of 1:4000 nearly. In other words, when clear sky is blank film and recommended screen brightness is 40 footcandles, the deepest black would stop down to 0.01 footcandles

or, the other way round,

the darkest shadows at 0.1 footcandles would call for 400 footcandles in the highlights. No theater on earth has ever played a print under such circumstances. My question is, why did they pour so much silver salts on the stock? I mean, EKC was the second largest silver consumer in the world, one was aware of that, they sold 200,000 miles of film a year and more. Incredible calculation!

Was it that Eastman-Kodak pursued a lab hook policy through silver recovery?
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#20 Dirk DeJonghe

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Posted 03 September 2012 - 12:52 PM

Simon,

You probably mean a screen brightness of 16FL, (about 50 CD/m2?).
There has been a lot of progress in projection optics since the last 20 years, look at what Isco and Schneider have to offer. This would mean better detail in the blacks. For those who really want B&W prints with very deep blacks, I still have a stock of 5369 (??) high contrast orthochromatic film. Gives incredible blacks with still nice grey scale. Very expensive, mostly used for titles and SFX old-style.
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