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Anamorphic With Least Flare


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#1 Evan Andrew John Prosofsky

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 11:40 AM

Hi everybody!

Topic really says it all. Have a shoot coming up on 4 Perf 35mm which I'm absolutely ecstatic about. The director wants the sharpest neg possible with creamy skin tones and shallow DOF that makes anamorphic so beautiful. HOWEVER the director is really not very keen on the characteristic blue horizontal flare that so often happens. Having never shot anamorphic before, my main question is what lenses flare the least? And what lenses flare with what color? The director loves lens flare, just not the overtly obvious sci fi blue. It would be nice to have the option to flare the lens if possible. Otherwise, what are techniques you guys often use to avoid it?

Most of the film will be shot during the day away from the sun, in which case I have nothing to worry about. But there is a scene under a bridge lit primarily with street lights and overhead flourescents and I'm worried that these relative point sources will flare blue?

Looking forward to your input,

Evan
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#2 Evan Andrew John Prosofsky

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 11:47 AM

Additionally, if it helps -- the lenses we currently have access to are V series Hawks, Lomo Roundfronts, and Optica Elites. Would love to hear what your opinions on these lenses are. I'm personally biased towards to the hawks because I'd imagine being modern they are the sharpest and flare the least, but who knows. (stupid music video budgets, never have the time to test :( )

Thankyou!!
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#3 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 12:03 PM

Hawk anamorphics from Vantage supposedly flare the least and don't have that blue horizontal flare line.
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#4 Freya Black

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 01:29 PM

Hi everybody!

Otherwise, what are techniques you guys often use to avoid it?


Matte box is your friend! :)

love

Freya
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#5 Evan Andrew John Prosofsky

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 03:26 PM

Hawk anamorphics from Vantage supposedly flare the least and don't have that blue horizontal flare line.

Thanks David! :) Great.

Conversely, just out of curiosity, which PL mount lenses in your opinion exhibit the most flare and the blue lines?
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#6 Evan Andrew John Prosofsky

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 03:30 PM

Matte box is your friend! :)

love

Freya

In your experience have you found that a mattebox is enough to reduce flare entirely? I'm worried about instances where the camera is pointed directly at overhead fixtures (lamp posts, flourescents). I'd imagine that the only fix is simply just "dont point the camera there", but I'd be curious if there are any tricks.
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#7 Kip Kubin

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 11:03 PM

Stay away from Square Front Lomos... That being said... Unless a non-diffused direct light or kick hits the front element they won't flair.

Matte box and flags should do the trick.

I carry a couple of extra rolls of black wrap... It's easiest to wrap anything kicking light out of frame rather than setting a bunch of flags.
Mostly chrome on cars in EXT shots ...that kind of thing
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#8 Evan Andrew John Prosofsky

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 11:07 PM

Stay away from Square Front Lomos... That being said... Unless a non-diffused direct light or kick hits the front element they won't flair.

Matte box and flags should do the trick.

I carry a couple of extra rolls of black wrap... It's easiest to wrap anything kicking light out of frame rather than setting a bunch of flags.
Mostly chrome on cars in EXT shots ...that kind of thing

Cool. Thanks Kip!

Do you have much experience with the square/round front lomos? What are the main differences?

I've heard varying opinions on which square/round front is better and I know some who own a variety of both in their kit. Very tricky.
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#9 Kip Kubin

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 11:22 PM

Here's a music video shot with my lenses...I own a set of square fronts... full kit 25, 50, 80...mostly mid 60's



Some of the wides are spherical in this video (Shooting on an Epic will not give you the correct width of proper 4 perf film... I'm guessing that's why they went with that choice rather than using a diopter)... I know you don't want flairs... but this video is a good example of what they do look like.



The reason people like the round fronts is two fold...mechanics are better and they have a closer focus without diopters.

The reason people have a kit with the 35mm Square Front and the 50 and 75 Round Front is because the Sq Front 35 just happens to be optically better...


Sq fronts do breathe more
Square front have mumps at min focus... I'm assuming round fronts have less??? don't really know that...someone else might.

Edited by Kip Kubin, 30 September 2012 - 11:24 PM.

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#10 Kip Kubin

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 11:36 PM

Here's another example of the Sq Front Lomos.



This one os all Lomo and more dramatic...as you can see most every lens flair could have been easily eliminated with a flag or two..but as it's a music video they work
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#11 Freya Black

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 09:45 AM

In your experience have you found that a mattebox is enough to reduce flare entirely? I'm worried about instances where the camera is pointed directly at overhead fixtures (lamp posts, flourescents). I'd imagine that the only fix is simply just "dont point the camera there", but I'd be curious if there are any tricks.


It helps a lot! Obviously if you are still shining a light directly at the lens there could still conceivably be problems but then you could try and shift the angle you are videoing at just a touch. I once shot anamorphic with a VERY flarey lens and no mattebox, and theres was all kinds of stuff going on, slightly too much for me, but everyone seemed to love the artifacts, so who was I to argue. ;)

Even without the mattebox and that flarey lens, I was able to shoot lights in shot without flare, in fact I tended to find it was off axis stuff that tended to cause flare and artifacts more! It tends to be to do with the angle the light hits the lens.

love

Freya
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#12 Evan Andrew John Prosofsky

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 12:21 PM

Here's another example of the Sq Front Lomos.



This one os all Lomo and more dramatic...as you can see most every lens flair could have been easily eliminated with a flag or two..but as it's a music video they work

Hey Kip thanks for the great help. Appreciate it.

Just curious if you know which lenses produce different colors of flare? I seem to see some produce a more neutral white flare, whereas others produce that characteristic deep sci fi blue flare. Does it differ between squarefronts and round?

And lastly, do you find you have to deal with mumping with the lomos? And is there anything you do to avoid it? Stop down? What about in low light situations?

Thanks so much!
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#13 Kip Kubin

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 02:04 PM

As for my Square Fronts - 35...tends to be blue the others white

Curing mumps is easy...just back off min focus a bit and it's gone... so use A diopter and use the focal lengths for wnat they are designed...ie...don't shoot a close up on the 35



Round fronts tend to bloom in their flair...rainbow colors etc....and I've not noticed any mumps at min focus

Hope that helps
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#14 Dom Jaeger

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 11:42 PM

The flariest (is that a word?) anamorphics are ones with the anamorphic elements right up front, like Lomo square-fronts and other early anamorphic systems. They also tend to mump because as the anamorphic group is moved to change focus the squeeze factor alters, especially at close focus. Round-front Lomos have a fixed anamorphic group in the middle, in front of a spherical lens set near infinity, with a spherical focusing element at the very front, so not quite as easy to flare, no mumps and less breathing.

Of the anamorphics I've seen, square-front Lomos, Arri Ultrascopes, Cooke Xtal Express tend to flare white, Panavision, round-front Lomos, Bausch and Lomb Cinemascopes more to blue. The colour of the lighting can also have an effect, from memory under tungsten the Lomo round-front flares are more blue, under HMIs they can go to orange.

You'll get the least flare from modern lenses with highly efficient multicoatings like the Hawks, also far sharper edge to edge than Lomos. If you can afford them they fit your brief. I don't have any experience with the Optica Elites, but I've heard they're reasonably flare resistant. Judging from their other lens lines I'd expect the build quality to be better than Lomos, but well below Hawks.

Virtually every anamorphic zoom works by having an anamorphic adapter at the very back, so no horizontal flaring there either. Looks more like cropped spherical. On a budget, old Angenieux HRs and Cooke 18-100s work well, but you lose a few stops and sharpness (esp the HR) could be an issue.

Good luck with the job Evan, it's nice to hear of people still shooting 4-perf anamorphic. You shot a Grimes vid on 35mm if I recall? I've had quite a few people mention that one to me as a standout. Well done!
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#15 Evan Andrew John Prosofsky

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 03:52 PM

"under tungsten Lomo round-front flares are more blue, under HMIs they can go to orange"

Really?? Interesting. Any chance you 100% confirm or deny this? Obviously that would be strange as HMI's are bluer in color and Tungsten is warmer in color. Would be nice to know as this will effect what units I rent next week, but no pressure. (Man I wish I had time to do my own test)

Cool! Thats great you saw the video and liked it :), interesting to hear how things get around, still blows me away!

All the best

The flariest (is that a word?) anamorphics are ones with the anamorphic elements right up front, like Lomo square-fronts and other early anamorphic systems. They also tend to mump because as the anamorphic group is moved to change focus the squeeze factor alters, especially at close focus. Round-front Lomos have a fixed anamorphic group in the middle, in front of a spherical lens set near infinity, with a spherical focusing element at the very front, so not quite as easy to flare, no mumps and less breathing.

Of the anamorphics I've seen, square-front Lomos, Arri Ultrascopes, Cooke Xtal Express tend to flare white, Panavision, round-front Lomos, Bausch and Lomb Cinemascopes more to blue. The colour of the lighting can also have an effect, from memory under tungsten the Lomo round-front flares are more blue, under HMIs they can go to orange.

You'll get the least flare from modern lenses with highly efficient multicoatings like the Hawks, also far sharper edge to edge than Lomos. If you can afford them they fit your brief. I don't have any experience with the Optica Elites, but I've heard they're reasonably flare resistant. Judging from their other lens lines I'd expect the build quality to be better than Lomos, but well below Hawks.

Virtually every anamorphic zoom works by having an anamorphic adapter at the very back, so no horizontal flaring there either. Looks more like cropped spherical. On a budget, old Angenieux HRs and Cooke 18-100s work well, but you lose a few stops and sharpness (esp the HR) could be an issue.

Good luck with the job Evan, it's nice to hear of people still shooting 4-perf anamorphic. You shot a Grimes vid on 35mm if I recall? I've had quite a few people mention that one to me as a standout. Well done!


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