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Canon 814AZ and 500T


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#1 Steve Williams

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 08:10 PM

I'm using the canon 814 Auto zoom... I've had it for about 2 years now and have shot plenty of 64T through it.
I'm trying to get back into shooting on film, but have some questions.

My camera can only read up to 250ASA... I plan on using 500T as my primary film of choice (mostly indoors).
Since my camera meters this film at 250 (i'm assuming) does that mean to get a decent result I would adjust my aperture by one stop? In this case one stop higher then what would be displayed on the cameras meter?

This weekend I plan on running a roll of 500T and 100D to conduct some tests.

I'm also comparing what my cameras meter says to an iphone light meter (yes, i'm an amateur)
when I set the meter to 500ISO and 24FPS, I usually read around 2 stops lower then what my S8 meter reads.
It's also off for the 100D film as well, but not as bad....

I plan on picking up a light meter from b&h before the test shoot.


Look forward to any help

Steve
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#2 David Cunningham

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 08:39 PM

I'm using the canon 814 Auto zoom... I've had it for about 2 years now and have shot plenty of 64T through it.
I'm trying to get back into shooting on film, but have some questions.

My camera can only read up to 250ASA... I plan on using 500T as my primary film of choice (mostly indoors).
Since my camera meters this film at 250 (i'm assuming) does that mean to get a decent result I would adjust my aperture by one stop? In this case one stop higher then what would be displayed on the cameras meter?

This weekend I plan on running a roll of 500T and 100D to conduct some tests.

I'm also comparing what my cameras meter says to an iphone light meter (yes, i'm an amateur)
when I set the meter to 500ISO and 24FPS, I usually read around 2 stops lower then what my S8 meter reads.
It's also off for the 100D film as well, but not as bad....

I plan on picking up a light meter from b&h before the test shoot.


Look forward to any help

Steve



Hi Steve,

I use an 814AZ with 500T on a regular basis indoors and out. I use a 58mm Tiffen 85 filter outdoors with the camera set to Tungsten rather than use the internal filter as it's plastic and very old.

Unless you have recently had that light meter in your camera tested and/or calibrated I would highly suggest using a light meter to get, or at least confirm, your readings.

You are correct that your camera will meter 500T as 250. That would technically expose your 500T one stop over and adjusting one stop down would correct this. However, I have never had this be a problem. In fact, I generally like to expose 500T super 8 at least 1/2 if not a full stop over, especially indoors. It tends to reduce grain, bump shadow highlights, and just be a safer bet than underexposing since 500T has great over exposure latitude.

I tend to shoot 100D at 1/2 stop under because over exposing it washes out the film quickly. I'd rather end up a full stop under than over with 100D.

You should set your meter to 1/58th of a second shutter speed for 24 FPS

I shot this entire wedding on 500T on an 814AZ that metered this scenes at 250. I think the over exposure actually helped. Of course, the later scenes are way UNDER exposed. But, you would never believe just how dark the ceremony and reception rooms were! My light meter rarely ever suggested a 500 ISO f stop higher than 1.0. But, it still came out usable.



Definitely let me know if you have any questions. I would love to help.

Regards,

Dave Cunningham
www.nevintagefilms.com
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#3 Chris Burke

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 08:58 PM

The camera will read it as either 400 or 250, but it really doesn't matter that much. For starters, your camera has a 150 degree shutter, so it needs more light than say a standard 180. Secondly, I wouldn't trust the internal meter, nor would I use the internal 85 filter. Let the cart push it out of the way, as it may. Thirdly, that film has huge exposure latitude, so don't sweat it. Use a spot meter and you will be all set. That camera and that film stock are very well paired.
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#4 Steve Williams

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 09:38 PM

Wow guys, extremely helpful.. I wont trust my internal meter much if this is the case. I didn't even think how it could be out of calibration.
I bought this light meter from B&H
http://www.bhphotovi...Deluxe_III.html
it's a ambient incident and reflected light meter. Will this work, or should I pick up the spot meter?

David, thanks for the post... I hope eventually my films will come out as nicely as yours. As I stated before, I only shot 64T in the past. It left a lot to be desired. I think the 500T and 100D will be my two weapons of choice.

I just want to be sure on the workflow (to mirror your results). After taking my readings with the light meter. adjust my aperture to 1/2 to full stop over my given reading for 500T; 1/2 stop under my given reading for 100D...?

I'll pick up an 85 filter from B&H... When I'm using the filter, I guess I would adjust my light meter to 320iso (cant remember the exact number) to reflect the install of the filter, right?

The newb,
Steve
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#5 Steve Williams

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 09:44 PM

Hi Steve,

I use an 814AZ with 500T on a regular basis indoors and out. I use a 58mm Tiffen 85 filter outdoors with the camera set to Tungsten rather than use the internal filter as it's plastic and very old.

Unless you have recently had that light meter in your camera tested and/or calibrated I would highly suggest using a light meter to get, or at least confirm, your readings.

You are correct that your camera will meter 500T as 250. That would technically expose your 500T one stop over and adjusting one stop down would correct this. However, I have never had this be a problem. In fact, I generally like to expose 500T super 8 at least 1/2 if not a full stop over, especially indoors. It tends to reduce grain, bump shadow highlights, and just be a safer bet than underexposing since 500T has great over exposure latitude.

I tend to shoot 100D at 1/2 stop under because over exposing it washes out the film quickly. I'd rather end up a full stop under than over with 100D.

You should set your meter to 1/58th of a second shutter speed for 24 FPS

I shot this entire wedding on 500T on an 814AZ that metered this scenes at 250. I think the over exposure actually helped. Of course, the later scenes are way UNDER exposed. But, you would never believe just how dark the ceremony and reception rooms were! My light meter rarely ever suggested a 500 ISO f stop higher than 1.0. But, it still came out usable.



Definitely let me know if you have any questions. I would love to help.

Regards,

Dave Cunningham
www.nevintagefilms.com


one last question, what type of lighting were you using for the ceremony and reception?
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#6 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 02:29 AM

If you get the chance, you should experiment with what might happen if you don't use an orange filter at all for indoors when you shoot negative film stock. On the one hand, the 85 filter might be helping to activate extra silver in the film for a thicker negative, on the other hand, the 85 filter lets less light in overall, which results in a slightly thinner negative.

Even though the warm look is very retro and cool (or is that retro and warm?), you might be able to get that anyways by not using the filter and gaining the extra overall light hitting the film, and then adjusting the warmth during the transfer. However, the overwarm 85 filter shot negative might reduce grain as the reduction in blue grain makes the film have less of a "grainy" look overall.

The philosophy in the past used to be, over-expose the negative by 2/3 to one stop when possible. So, if the meter only goes up to 250, that is actually a blessing when shooting 500 ASA negative film stock, especially when one factors in the light that is siphoned off to the viewfinder. One stop overexposure when shooting super-8 indoors is probably ideal since the viewfinder siphons out around 1/3 to 1/2 of a stop of light.

While I generally agree that one is probably better off slightly underexposing Ektachrome 100D versus overexposing it when shooting it outdoors, that also relates to whether or not the scene is backlit, and the color of the people's skin color, hair and clothing as well. In a backlighting situation, underexposure in combination with dark hair, clothing, or skin color can begin to take the vibrancy out of the facial tones.

I hope you can get a chance to try some negative indoor filming without the 85 filter when it is not a totally critical situation, you may find the trade off of more light hitting the film more than offsets hitting the film with an 85 filter, especially in low light situations, as long as the removal of the 85 filter does not fool the light meter into under-exposing by lifting the setting above wide open. However, it is also possible that the balancing of the blue grains with the orange grains may produce more of a grainy look, and perhaps that is the reason for going more orange and retro at the same time.

I like the black columns on both sides of the image, and the full super-8 frame transfer, it feels like one is watching a movie in a theatre. I have said in the past that that black column on both sides could become a way to offer commercial free programing with small, non animated, subtle logos as advertising in that black area, kind of how they do during soccer games when they put a still logo somewhere within the image. In this case, the logo could actually be in the black area and not in the actual movie area. And, it appears that on an SD monitor the positioning is still centered so that most of the image would still appear intact.

Good stuff.
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#7 Zac Fettig

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 07:26 AM

Hi,

I have an 814 AZ Electronic, so it's a little different, but for what it's worth...

I usually prefer using the internal meter over my Sekonic. Why? Well, the aperture tends to drift if I set it manually. One second it could be F2.0, the next, F2.8. 2 seconds later it'll be 5.6. All without touching the control. I believe it's controlled inside the camera with a little rubber wheel, which has gotten brittle over the last 35 years. I've tried dissecting another 814 AZE (already broken), and it was not fun. Hence I leave it alone and shoot Auto.

I believe the original 814 Auto Zoom was a bit more rugged, and built heavier. But I'm not entirely sure. It would be something to keep an eye on.
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#8 David Cunningham

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 07:29 AM

Wow guys, extremely helpful.. I wont trust my internal meter much if this is the case. I didn't even think how it could be out of calibration.
I bought this light meter from B&H
http://www.bhphotovi...Deluxe_III.html
it's a ambient incident and reflected light meter. Will this work, or should I pick up the spot meter?

David, thanks for the post... I hope eventually my films will come out as nicely as yours. As I stated before, I only shot 64T in the past. It left a lot to be desired. I think the 500T and 100D will be my two weapons of choice.

I just want to be sure on the workflow (to mirror your results). After taking my readings with the light meter. adjust my aperture to 1/2 to full stop over my given reading for 500T; 1/2 stop under my given reading for 100D...?

I'll pick up an 85 filter from B&H... When I'm using the filter, I guess I would adjust my light meter to 320iso (cant remember the exact number) to reflect the install of the filter, right?

The newb,
Steve



That looks like a good light meter.

As Chris was saying, the latitude on the 500T is so good that it gives you a lot of exposure wiggle room. You could be a full 2 stops off in either direction and hardly tell, especially after the DI process. I primarily over expose to reduce grain. As you can see in the later (dark) scenes, the grain is WAY higher because of the DI push. I literally had it locked all the way open. I thought for sure I was completely wasting film.

Believe it or not, I have found the spot meter in the iPhone to be amazingly accurate. I personally use the app "light meter" and get amazing results.

The 85 filter will cut about 2/3 of a stop. I calculate that to 340. But, just do the stop reduction after the fact. So, if your meter says f8 for 500, manually set your camera to 1/3 past f4 (towards f8).

However, Chris is also right about the 150 degree thing. Technically you do need about a 1/3 stop more light than your meter will read, although some meters let you set this. Especially with direct sunlight, you want to be more careful with over exposing. I generally do the 1/2 or 1 stop over thing indoors only since the "highlights" you will be concerned with are usually darker. Outdoors (especially with weddings and white/light dresses) the highlights you are looking to get are going to be white/bright. Really, it depends on what highlights you are most concerned about.

So, all that said, with the 85 filter on the camera, outdoors, bright sunlight, wanting to avoid blowing out bright highlights, meter reading f8 for 500, I would still set the camera to f4 as that will probably be a perfectly accurate setting for the scenario. (Not over or under at all, but erring on the side of very slightly over).

With no 85 filter, indoors, dull lights, lots of dark shadows, meter reading f8 for 500 I would still set it to f4. Technically, this would over expose somewhere between 1/3 and 2/3 of a stop. That's how I shot the New Years wedding.

100D reversal is great for outdoor shots if you are not particularly concerned about shadow highlights. If that's the case, definitely keep it to 1/3 or 1/2 stop under to avoid bright/white highlight blow-out. If using it indoors, try to be as close to accurate or even 1/3 over. Just be careful not to get to or over 1 stop over. Once you get to that point things really start to blow out quickly.

Thanks of the complements on the wedding film. I'm still early on in my business and learning curve. I hope to improve the quality of my shoots. There's still lots of room to grow.

One last note about light meters and the Canon AZ 814. I know Pro8mm gets a lot of @#%@ on these boards. But, they are very good with this camera. I had them "rebuild" my AZ 814 as a Pro814 and I am amazingly happy with their work. The meter now seems very accurate (even for 500T), the images sharp and the film pull through smooth.

Dave
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#9 David Cunningham

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 07:40 AM

one last question, what type of lighting were you using for the ceremony and reception?



Believe it or not, all natural room lighting. And, very low room lighting at that. I love natural light shots. However, I did buy one of these after this shoot because of how dark it was at the cake cutting and dances:

http://www.bhphotovi..._70W_Video.html

I just have someone hold it for me (since there is no mount on the 814 AZ.

I only use it when absolutely necessary.

Dave
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#10 David Cunningham

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 08:22 PM

So,

I can't believe no one corrected me on this. Very embarrassing. Glad I am correcting myself first!

I'm not really sure what was wrong with my head.. I'm not sure how I let that get away from me. :)

Starting at full open aperture on your 814AZ you are at f1.4. From there, full stop increments are:

2.0
2.8
4
5.6
8
11
16
22
closed

The . marks are the missing numbers from the scale above.

So, I actually should have said set your meter to about 1/3 past f5.6, the . mark... not f4. Sorry!

Full stops, as seen in the list above, are not whole numbers, unfortunately. DUH!

This link is a good explanation of f stop. It's title of "tedious" is accurate. :)

http://www.uscoles.com/fstop.htm
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