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Some questions on the Canon Auto Zoom 814 Electronic Super 8 camera


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#1 Hara Kli

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 11:28 AM

Hello,

I have some...probably stupid questions on operating the Canon Auto Zoom 814 Electronic. I'm shooting my graduation film on this Super 8 camera and i bought it in an excellent condition (the store had stocks tested and it works fine-they said). The thing is though that i only did a test roll like yesterday and i'm shooting in 4 weeks and the stock won't be ready with process-telecine-delivery till the shooting dates. So i'm trusting the working condition of this camera:/


Just a quick info on the conditions that i'll be shooting in. I'll be shooting indoors with natural light coming from one big window in the room and i'll be using a variation of Kodachrome 100D, Vision 2 200T and Vision 3 500T. So its mainly daylight, natural light (window light) and these three stocks.


So my first question has to do with switching on or off the in built-filter of the camera when shooting in daylight (no artificial light) and the use of the 85B filter? What's their difference?..

I'm not sure if i should be using manual or trusting the auto exposure of this camera. (well i didn't really check the manual handling of this camera on a film stock to see the results). What would you suggest? Since i'm shooting on daylight under no conditions of over exposure or under exposure should i also use a light meter or can i trust the viewfinder's exposure meter?

And two more questions on this camera model. What is the difference between the CCA Filter Adapter Socket and the CCA Filter Cancellation Adapter Socket? Is one of those the in-built filter?

And lastly about the flash and remote control for the shutter. The camera didn't have any of those in the case when i ordered it. Are they vital for functioning this camera on filming or just taking stop motion-photos?

Thank you for reading this and i would be so grateful for any feedback!!
Hara
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#2 Miguel Loredo

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 03:17 PM

If you are shooting only daylight, with the 814 AE just forget the filter issue: For the tungsten stocks the 85 internal filter is enabled always (unless you screw on top to cancel the filter and shoot tungsten light) and for the "d" cartridges as Ektachrome, the cartridge itself will automatically disable the internal filter no matter what you select on the camera. You only need to cancel the filter for shooting with the Vision (T) under tungsten light, which is not your case.

It is very common that the manual ring for the exposure is not working in this model: check if the needle moves when you turn the dial to select the diaphragm manually. There is an internal rubber that becomes sticky with the years, making this dial not working nowadays, although can be easily repaired by proper hands.

In terms of correct exposure, this camera is very accurate so you can trust the auto meter. On the other hand, if your lighting condition is changing during the shoot it is not very professional to see how the aperture readjusts itself... but it is accurate.

To cancel the CCA filter, you need to screw the adapter on top so the tiny pin at the center is pushed in. This adapter is normally screwed down when not in use (where the tripod) but has no function there.
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#3 Zac Fettig

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 04:27 PM

Miguel pretty much has it covered.

On my 814 AZE, the built in filter is ALWAYS disabled. I screwed in the adapter and left it there. If I need to correct, I just use a screw in filter, in front of the lens.

Even if your manual meter works, it can drift. Manual metering is mechanically seperate from auto metering on this camera. Auto metering on the camera isn't too bad. It's a lot better than some cameras. It can do bad things if the lighting changes quickly though.

I think you mean Ektachrome 100D. No one develops Kodachrome any more (and I don't think they made a 100D). If you have some Kodachrome, use it for decoration or throw it out.

If a sunny window is your only light source, the 200T and 500T will be way more useful. Also, if you're using negative stocks for a project, you might want to consider using ALL negative stock. And switch out the 100D for Vision3 50D (for outdoor shooting).

Adding a few lights to the room would also be a good idea, to minimize lighting changes if the sun goes behind a cloud. China balls are cheap and effective for what you want to do.

The flash and remote control are both rare items now. They were optional when the camera was new, and mostly used for doing animation/stop motion work. A regular x-sync flash should work if you want to do that kind of stuff. But again, completely optional. Using the shoe for a tungsten balanced LED light would probably be a better use of the shoe.
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#4 Hara Kli

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 01:10 PM

hey,

thanks both of you for the feedback!

sorry, i meant Ektachrome 100D. So do you reckon i have to use a lightmeter? Since it will be in EE/auto i can see the right exposure through the viewfinder and change the lighting accordingly. If it's overexposed i'll use an ND Filter and if it's underexposed i will probably bring in some additional lights.

I'm a bit confused with the filter issue. So basically the 85 in-built filter should only be cancelled when using a tungsten stock and shooting under tungsten light..When you're shooting in daylight even if you're using a daylight or a tungsten stock the filter is not an issue. Do i have them right in my mind? Because i thought it was the other way around and if you're shooting under daylight and leave the in-built filter in, the film would come out terribly orange. And then if you want to shoot at lwer light conditions you have to put a blue 80A filter.

...So under tungsten light you have to disable or enable the in-built filter? ...I think i've confused the whole thing ;/

The 814 AE has two CCA Filter cancellations. The Socket (on top of the camera) and the Adapter (a red screw near the tripod socket). Which one is the in-built filter cancellation? The adapter is a small screw with a tiny lamp sign. I can't see it's use. When i unscrew it,ti seems it's just a...socket. Yes, the Adapter Socket has this tiny pin at the center. Is that the in-built Filter? The camera came without any socket cover and right now the pin is up. So to disable it i have to do it sort of manually.

again any feedback is a salvation!

Thanks
Hara
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#5 David Cunningham

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 01:36 PM

hey,

thanks both of you for the feedback!

sorry, i meant Ektachrome 100D. So do you reckon i have to use a lightmeter? Since it will be in EE/auto i can see the right exposure through the viewfinder and change the lighting accordingly. If it's overexposed i'll use an ND Filter and if it's underexposed i will probably bring in some additional lights.


Sounds right to me. I have very good luck using the internal meter of my 814 for getting a base reading. Then I manually set the exposure to that reading so it doesn't bounce all over the place. If the meter shows it will stop way down, I use an ND filter to open it back up a bit. If I show it will be way open, I try to add light.

I'm a bit confused with the filter issue. So basically the 85 in-built filter should only be cancelled when using a tungsten stock and shooting under tungsten light..When you're shooting in daylight even if you're using a daylight or a tungsten stock the filter is not an issue. Do i have them right in my mind? Because i thought it was the other way around and if you're shooting under daylight and leave the in-built filter in, the film would come out terribly orange. And then if you want to shoot at lwer light conditions you have to put a blue 80A filter.

...So under tungsten light you have to disable or enable the in-built filter? ...I think i've confused the whole thing ;/


You are partly correct. When shooting with a tungsten stock you will need to set the camera to tungsten to disable the filter under tungsten light. When you are shooting outdoors you will enable the filter by setting it to daylight. However, I usually leave it set to tungsten even outdoors and use an external 85 filter because the internal ones are old crappy plastic. A nice Tiffen filter is much better. Either way, shooting tungsten film outdoors without a filter of some kind will look very blue. But, you can always fix that in post since it's 8mm negative, meaning you will be converting it to digital anyhow.

When using daylight film, the cartridge will automatically remove the filter by pushing on a button in the compartment. The tungsten cart has a notch so it will not push this button. The daylight has no notch, so the button is pressed. No matter what you do, the filter will be removed. Again, I usually leave my filter manually removed anyhow, but short of an odd camera that does not have this functionality, the daylight cart should auto-remove the filter. You should never use the 85 filter (internal or otherwise) on daylight film. Outdoors it would look very yellow with an 85 filter on. I'm not sure that it would look more yellow indoors, but it would certainly cut TONS of light.

If you want to shoot daylight film indoors you would need need an 80A filter to keep it from looking yellow. However, the addition of an 80A filter cuts a lot of light which makes your 100 speed film pretty much a 25 speed film. So, it's preferable that indoors you try to use "daylight" 6000 or 6500 colored lighting when trying to use 100D indoors. Otherwise, with an external 80A filter, you will be forced to use very bright tungsten lighting.

The 814 AE has two CCA Filter cancellations. The Socket (on top of the camera) and the Adapter (a red screw near the tripod socket). Which one is the in-built filter cancellation? The adapter is a small screw with a tiny lamp sign. I can't see it's use. When i unscrew it,ti seems it's just a...socket. Yes, the Adapter Socket has this tiny pin at the center. Is that the in-built Filter? The camera came without any socket cover and right now the pin is up. So to disable it i have to do it sort of manually.

again any feedback is a salvation!

Thanks
Hara


My understanding with that camera is that you need something in that socket to push that pin down to cancel the filter.
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#6 Zac Fettig

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 01:37 PM

The main reason I never use the built-in filter (on any super-8 camera) is because it's about 40 years old, and made of gelatine (instead of optical glass). They do not age well; It'll be heavily degraded, and will mess up anything taken with it. I'd use screw on or drop in filters only.

To disable the filter, you take the red plastic screw from the bottom, and screw it into the top. It's that easy. I'd say just leave it there.

The screw presses the pin down, and disables the filter.

An 85 filter will convert daylight balanced light to tungsten balanced light. They come in three grades (A,B,C) depending on how much color shift you want. 85B is standard. So you use it for shooting tungsten balanced film in daylight. Buy a screw in filter. It'll be about $25. It's worth every penny.

The 80A is used for shooting Daylight balanced film in tungsten light.

If you forget, they can also compensate for color when they do a telecine, if you tell the lab.

If you're shooting on auto, you can use the built in meter. As long as the needle is somewhere in the middle, you'll be fine. If you have the budget, a real lightmeter is your best friend.
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#7 David Cunningham

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 01:42 PM

The 814 AE has two CCA Filter cancellations. The Socket (on top of the camera) and the Adapter (a red screw near the tripod socket). Which one is the in-built filter cancellation? The adapter is a small screw with a tiny lamp sign. I can't see it's use. When i unscrew it,ti seems it's just a...socket. Yes, the Adapter Socket has this tiny pin at the center. Is that the in-built Filter? The camera came without any socket cover and right now the pin is up. So to disable it i have to do it sort of manually.

again any feedback is a salvation!

Thanks
Hara


Hara, now that I think of it. I think you're supposed to take that small screw with the lamp on it and screw it into the socket on top. Are they the same thread?

Dave
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#8 Hara Kli

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 03:30 PM

Ok, i got it now. I will just disable the filter either way and get a screw in filter. 80A filter for shooting with a daylight balanced film (Ektachrome 100D) in tungsten light. And a 85B filter for shooting tungsten film in daylight. So here comes the next stupid question:) Is Vision 2 200T and Vision 3 500T tungsten balanced films? So since i will be shooting mainly on daylight and with windowlight if these 2 stocks are tungsten balanced i'll need to get an 85 filter?


Yes Dave, they are the same thread...

''Sounds right to me. I have very good luck using the internal meter of my 814 for getting a base reading. Then I manually set the exposure to that reading so it doesn't bounce all over the place. If the meter shows it will stop way down, I use an ND filter to open it back up a bit. If I show it will be way open, I try to add light.''


So you trust this camera in auto and just reading the exposure form the viewfinder? The manual handling of this camera seems a tiny bit complicated to me and i won't have time to do a test roll before the actual shoot of a film...so i sort of trust it in auto..


''If you want to shoot daylight film indoors you would need need an 80A filter to keep it from looking yellow. However, the addition of an 80A filter cuts a lot of light which makes your 100 speed film pretty much a 25 speed film. So, it's preferable that indoors you try to use "daylight" 6000 or 6500 colored lighting when trying to use 100D indoors. Otherwise, with an external 80A filter, you will be forced to use very bright tungsten lighting.''

If i shoot under tungsten light indoors i will use Vision 2 or 3 because they're well known for working well under low light conditions. I might shoot some shots at night within a room with light just from a hanging lamp so i won't probably need any filter for that, will i?!

And last question! When using one of these filters i've read that the exposure increases 2 stops. Will that be shown on the viewfinder exposure meter so i know or i'll have to have that in mind?

thanks, thanks, thanks!
Hara
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#9 David Cunningham

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 01:37 PM

"Is Vision 2 200T and Vision 3 500T tungsten balanced films? So since i will be shooting mainly on daylight and with windowlight if these 2 stocks are tungsten balanced i'll need to get an 85 filter?"

Yes, that's what the T stands for, tungsten. So, yes, you would need an 85 filter. However, for the best results, you should use daylight film outside and tungsten inside. In fact, if it's outdoors in direct sun or light shade I would pick up some Vision3 50D direct from Kodak. It's great stock! You can't really use it indoors with window light, but for best results you should use the stock intended for certain scenarios. You CAN use 500T outdoors with an 85 filter (and probably need and ND too). But, it will be very grainy in Super 8.

"So you trust this camera in auto and just reading the exposure form the viewfinder?"

Exactly. The auto exposure is great for home movies. But, if you are trying to make a "film" or some kind, it looks very amateur to see your exposure constantly adjusting. Plus, with the exposure latitude of Vision3 negative you don't have to worry about a few stops over or under. It will be hardly noticeable. Always air on the side of slight over exposure with Super 8, it helps reduce the grain of the final product and makes the shadow highlights stand out a bit more. Especially with 50D it's pretty unlikely that you'll blow it out unless you are WAY off.

"I might shoot some shots at night within a room with light just from a hanging lamp so i won't probably need any filter for that, will i?!"

You'll definitely want 500T for that scenario. Also long as the light is 3-4K then you should be good. If it's tungsten that's almost always the color. If it's CFL, sometimes it's a bit higher. Check the bulbs you are using. They will say the "color temperature". My home is mostly daylight CFL (5500 - 6000). So, I use daylight film indoors all the time and the lighting comes close to correct without much color correction. You can get Kodak Vision3 250D in Super 8 from Pro8mm.

"And last question! When using one of these filters i've read that the exposure increases 2 stops. Will that be shown on the viewfinder exposure meter so i know or i'll have to have that in mind?

Exactly. That's why using an 80A filter indoors drops your 100D to 25. That's two stops (one being 50 and 2 being 25). Your light meter is in the viewfinder itself so, yes. Putting an external screw on filter will cut the light to the meter and the meter will adjust for that and increase exposure by 2 stops or so. You can test that by watching the meter. Just remember that two stops is not two digits. For example, if you are shooting 500T outdoors and your meter reading put your iris down to f8, putting an 85B filter on should cause it to open up to about f4, not f6. On your camera 1 stop increments are 22,16,11,8,5.6,4,2.8,2 and 1.4.

Dave
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#10 Hara Kli

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 12:35 PM

Thanks Dave

''So, yes, you would need an 85 filter. However, for the best results, you should use daylight film outside and tungsten inside. In fact, if it's outdoors in direct sun or light shade I would pick up some Vision3 50D direct from Kodak. It's great stock! You can't really use it indoors with window light, but for best results you should use the stock intended for certain scenarios. You CAN use 500T outdoors with an 85 filter (and probably need and ND too). But, it will be very grainy in Super 8.''

I'm shooting only indoors with window light and with the variation of Vision 2, Vision 3 and 100D. And if i shoot any night shots in the room i'll only use Vision 3..But yes i'll get a screw in 85B filter for the Vision stocks when i shoot in window light-daylight.

''The auto exposure is great for home movies. But, if you are trying to make a "film" or some kind, it looks very amateur to see your exposure constantly adjusting. Plus, with the exposure latitude of Vision3 negative you don't have to worry about a few stops over or under. It will be hardly noticeable. Always air on the side of slight over exposure with Super 8, it helps reduce the grain of the final product and makes the shadow highlights stand out a bit more. Especially with 50D it's pretty unlikely that you'll blow it out unless you are WAY off.''

So the constant adjustment of exposure is visible on the image, how could that change? I was thinking of it..I've seen a lot of test reels shot on auto with this camera and you can see the shutter drop as soon as the lighting changes slightly. Maybe with manual handling that could be avoided?!

Hara
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#11 David Cunningham

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 12:55 PM

I'm shooting only indoors with window light and with the variation of Vision 2, Vision 3 and 100D. And if i shoot any night shots in the room i'll only use Vision 3..But yes i'll get a screw in 85B filter for the Vision stocks when i shoot in window light-daylight.


So the constant adjustment of exposure is visible on the image, how could that change? I was thinking of it..I've seen a lot of test reels shot on auto with this camera and you can see the shutter drop as soon as the lighting changes slightly. Maybe with manual handling that could be avoided?!


You'll almost certainly have to use 500T if you are trying to do indoors with just window light. If you have it available, Vision3 250D would be preferable as it will be faster film than 500T cut by two stops (with the filter) and finer grained. Your 500T basically becomes a 125D with the filter on. The 200T a 50D with the filter.

That's exactly why you use manual exposure. Again, it's nice that the iris will stop down when you pan from bright to dark if you are doing home movies. In "professional" settings you woud plan alternate shots or plan for a nice "lens flare" or something like that.

Dave
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#12 David Cunningham

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 12:57 PM

Actually, it looks like an 85B filter is only 2/3 of a stop. So, your 500T would be 320D. I'd still opt for the 250D if available for the finer grain.

Dae
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#13 Zac Fettig

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 11:22 AM

So you trust this camera in auto and just reading the exposure form the viewfinder? The manual handling of this camera seems a tiny bit complicated to me and i won't have time to do a test roll before the actual shoot of a film...so i sort of trust it in auto..


The auto metering system on the 814 AZE is more trustworthy than the manual metering system. The aperture is electronic, and controlled by a little rubber wheel, which is now 40 years old. If you set the aperture, it can jump around a lot. If you replace the rubber (not easy) then the manual metering system will work fine.

For example, if you set it to f4.0, you can watch as it jumps up to f5.6, f8.0.

If your camera can hold a position, then your method will work fine. Test it. Set it to f8.0 in manual, and watch the needle. If it moves AT ALL, do not use manual metering. If it stays in one position, give it a shot.

The camera meters TTL (through the lens) so if you put filters on, the built in meter will include them in the reading. If you use an external meter, you'll have to adjust for them.
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#14 Hara Kli

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 03:10 PM

Hey,


Zac, when i set the camera manually (with the shutter control ring and the exposure adjustment knob on either '2' or '4') the meter needle doesn't move, it stays on the left red area of the meter. Only when its on auto it moves and also it doesn't hold a straight position. I mean when i pan or tilt with the camera, the needle obviously moves slightly because the exposure changes. Is that what you mean the 'aperture jumps'?

Also i went to a camera store to buy a light meter and the guy in the store told me that it's useless for this camera because you can see the exposure on the exposure meter of the viewfinder. And that an external light meter would complicate things so i should only trust the indicating aperture of the exposure meter. I'm not sure. If the light meter showed a different aperture from the viewfinder's one then that be very confusing. What do you think? And do you know any good and relatively cheap light meter to suggest for this camera?

thanks for your feedback David and Zac
Hara
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#15 Hara Kli

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 06:37 PM

You'll almost certainly have to use 500T if you are trying to do indoors with just window light. If you have it available, Vision3 250D would be preferable as it will be faster film than 500T cut by two stops (with the filter) and finer grained. Your 500T basically becomes a 125D with the filter on. The 200T a 50D with the filter.

That's exactly why you use manual exposure. Again, it's nice that the iris will stop down when you pan from bright to dark if you are doing home movies. In "professional" settings you woud plan alternate shots or plan for a nice "lens flare" or something like that.

Dave



Dave, i've already bought all my stocks and i can't spend more money and buy the 250D stock. I think Vision 2 and 3 have fine film speeds with the filter on. I've seen some test reels and it looks actually great. So basically the less ASA the film has the better the grain is?..That's why the Ektachrome 100D they say has the finest grain?

Hara
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#16 David Cunningham

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 10:44 PM

Ektachrome 100D has the finest grain and resolving power because it's reversal, not negative. The negative stocks by nature show more grain and have less "resolving power". That's part of what makes the loss of reversal so sad. :(
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#17 Cheyne Bush

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 08:48 PM

Hello all, new to the forum, also a user of the Canon 814 Auto Zoom Electronic. I'm not sure if this warrants a thread of its own and if it does I apologize, but since it's related to this same model of camera, I thought it right to bring it up in this thread. This is probably a long-shot, but I'm looking for the underwater housing C-8 for this camera. It's mentioned in the manual, and I've done extensive Internet research to no avail. I plan on going into Pro8mm at some point and asking them about it, but if anyone has any info here, it would be incredibly helpful. Thanks!
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#18 David Cunningham

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 10:21 PM

Hello all, new to the forum, also a user of the Canon 814 Auto Zoom Electronic. I'm not sure if this warrants a thread of its own and if it does I apologize, but since it's related to this same model of camera, I thought it right to bring it up in this thread. This is probably a long-shot, but I'm looking for the underwater housing C-8 for this camera. It's mentioned in the manual, and I've done extensive Internet research to no avail. I plan on going into Pro8mm at some point and asking them about it, but if anyone has any info here, it would be incredibly helpful. Thanks!


I don't know about the actual Canon housing, but check these guys:

http://www.thesexton...ter_video3.html
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#19 Miguel Loredo

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 08:44 AM

Hello all, new to the forum, also a user of the Canon 814 Auto Zoom Electronic. I'm not sure if this warrants a thread of its own and if it does I apologize, but since it's related to this same model of camera, I thought it right to bring it up in this thread. This is probably a long-shot, but I'm looking for the underwater housing C-8 for this camera. It's mentioned in the manual, and I've done extensive Internet research to no avail. I plan on going into Pro8mm at some point and asking them about it, but if anyone has any info here, it would be incredibly helpful. Thanks!


Certainly there was an underwater housing but I would suggest you to forget it... if any was sold it is now a museum piece at some collector's living-room...
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#20 Hara Kli

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 09:23 PM

Hey,

i decided to trust the exposure of the viewfinder and not buy a light meter. I did some tests with the camera on manual and the meter needle is stable and it works fine. It doesn't move at all when i set it to a particular aperture. In auto it jumps around either in daylight or under tungsten light when i do a pan or a tilt. So i really don't know which is the way to go. I don't want it to be visible on the image eveytime the exposure changes. I thought of combining both when i'll shoot my film. Hope both will work fine.

Also i tried to do the fade in and fade out effect with the shutter control ring but i'm not sure if you're supposed to do that while the camera is on auto or manually? Is there a significant difference? And also while doing fade out/in do i have to set the exposure adjustment knob on either 'open', '2' or '4'. Anyone that has the camera knows?..

thanks
Hara
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