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Want to shoot dialogue with my Arriflex 16 SB


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#1 Matt Braun

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 06:50 PM

I just bought a 16mm Arriflex SB from NYU. I want to eventually shoot projects with dialogue. After doing some research I've figured out that I'd need a crystal sync motor.

Can someone recommend a specific motor for someone who wants to just shoot dialogue. What I mean is I'm not looking to do anything fancy, so I don't need Any special features. I just need a motor that will shoot at a constant 24 frames per second so that I can sync up some dialogue. The most standard (and least expensive) motor that can do this would be perfect.

And since I thinks this matters, I'll mention that my camera is a 6 volt. Thanks for any help!!

PS. I would also love to edit the old school way. Are there any alternatives to a full steenbeck flatbed that would allow me to edit by cutting and splicing?

Edited by Matt Braun, 14 February 2013 - 06:54 PM.

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#2 Gregg MacPherson

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 08:16 PM

"PS. I would also love to edit the old school way. Are there any alternatives to a full steenbeck flatbed that would allow me to edit by cutting and splicing?"

 

There are what we used to call pic-syncs.  Like a gang syncronizer with a little viewing screen.  Quite nice to cut with but the viewing screen is quite small.  Why don't you want to use a flat bed?  Flat beds will be realy cheap if you can find one.  Search eBay for Moviola,  there's a Moviola pic-sync there now.  Sorry I had trouble using an actual link here.


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#3 Matt Braun

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 08:30 PM

Wouldn't a full sized Steenbeck flat bed be like thousands of dollars?
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#4 Gregg MacPherson

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 09:10 PM

I searched the sold listings in eBay and saw a Steenbeck sold for $50.  So anything is possible.

http://www.ebay.com/...=item20cd887ab3

 

 

There are other makes as well as Steenbeck.  I have 2 Moviola flatbeds.  KEM.  Maybe CP made an unusual semi flatbed that had the beds arranged on stepped surfaces with a vertical syncronizer in the centre.   


Edited by Gregg MacPherson, 14 February 2013 - 09:13 PM.

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#5 Matt Braun

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Posted 14 February 2013 - 09:57 PM

Holy hell, $50? That little? That's awesome. Thanks. I'll keep a look out.
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#6 Mark Dunn

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 06:11 AM

Steenbeck will sell you a new one for about £20,000.

If you were in London you could rent mine.


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#7 Will Montgomery

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 10:39 AM

Holy hell, $50? That little? That's awesome. Thanks. I'll keep a look out.

That probably sold for $50 just so they could get rid of it. They take up alot of space in your dining room.


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#8 Tim Carroll

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Posted 15 February 2013 - 07:18 PM

As far as a motor for the Arriflex 16 SB, probably the easiest solution is to try to find a Tobin Crystal Sync motor for it.  They are getting harder to find, but that is the easiest solution.

 

The ARRI governor controlled 24 FPS motor can be extremely accurate if adjusted properly.  I have used one for sync sound shooting.  But you need someone who knows how to adjust the motor, and techs who can do that are few and very far between.

 

The biggest issue with shooting sound sync with the Arriflex 16 SB is the noise the camera will be making.  The Arriflex 16 SB can be very loud.

 

Best,

-Tim


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#9 Patrick Lewis

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 01:26 PM

I'm new at this, so take my advice with a grain of salt. Is it really necessary to use a crystal sync? I recently shot some test footage with a K-3 and was able to sync dialogue sound with my projector for a full 25 second take by simply changing the tempo (but not the tone) of the recording in Audacity. I understand that some people might want longer takes, but the change in tempo is not even noticeable because the adjustment was only about half a second total. Is this a bad way to work? For instance, are there other issues that can arise when splicing multiple scenes together?


Edited by Patrick Lewis, 16 February 2013 - 01:26 PM.

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#10 Mark Dunn

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 05:25 AM

Syncing up shot-by-shot like that would be a bit laborious, but quite doable if you have more time than money.


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#11 Will Montgomery

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 11:50 AM

Syncing up shot-by-shot like that would be a bit laborious, but quite doable if you have more time than money.

I just did a project with an SR3 syncing audio manually using the clapper alone. What a pain. I know the SR3 is timecode capable but I just haven't used that work flow. I'm looking into that in the future. How pleasant it would be to have the transfer house do the audio syncing for me in a standard "dailies" model.


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#12 Christopher Sheneman

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 06:20 AM

I just did a project with an SR3 syncing audio manually using the clapper alone. What a pain. I know the SR3 is timecode capable but I just haven't used that work flow. I'm looking into that in the future. How pleasant it would be to have the transfer house do the audio syncing for me in a standard "dailies" model.

Yes, Will! OP do not take any of the encouraging advice to go ahead with a Arri SB project with non-synced dialogue on Steenbeck!! Haha, I'm not even going into the details as to why, because it's so stupid and it hurts my head to think about it.

 

But this- you will never finish your project.

 

It will be an exercise in frustration, time wasted..etc. attaining useless skills such as syncing mag or working on a flatbed.

 

Repeat this to yourself in times of weakness- "There is no glory in making already difficult film production more difficult in the hopes of fulfilling my nostalgic fantasy that no one shares".

 

Do you think the editors of 50's wouldn't trade their flatbeds for a NLE system? Oh man, they would..They would kill for one. And you come along and blithely with the wrong camera attempt to create chaos!

 

You wanna shot sync? Get a sync camera (with a crystal motor and self-blimped) and stop **(obscenity removed)** around. Best advice you're gonna get!

 

**note: You'd prolly spend the same amount of money getting a special motor for that SB then just selling and buying a sync camera.


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#13 Mark Dunn

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 06:46 AM

Yes, Will! OP do not take any of the encouraging advice to go ahead with a Arri SB project with non-synced dialogue on Steenbeck!! Haha, I'm not even going into the details as to why, because it's so stupid and it hurts my head to think about it.

 

 

 

It will be an exercise in frustration, time wasted..etc. attaining useless skills such as syncing mag or working on a flatbed.

I think you should go into detail as to why those of us who learnt these skills are stupid for preserving them. Or even thinking about using them. I wouldn't sync up on a Steenbeck, I'd use my pic sync, but that's a British preference.

Obsolescent, yes. Useless, no. Tell that to Tacita Dean.


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#14 Will Montgomery

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 10:00 AM

I think you should go into detail as to why those of us who learnt these skills are stupid for preserving them. Or even thinking about using them. I wouldn't sync up on a Steenbeck, I'd use my pic sync, but that's a British preference.

Obsolescent, yes. Useless, no. Tell that to Tacita Dean.

I think it's great to preserve the knowledge of how it was done. I would say however that it probably would get in the way of making a film rather than truly helping it. If you've never done it, taking the time to learn, understand it and get fast enough would be honorable yet counter productive when that time could be spent on refining the script, working with actors or on set design. In between films it would be a wonderful thing to learn from someone with experience but probably not in the middle of a production.


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#15 Mark Dunn

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 11:49 AM

That's very fair and reasonable.


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#16 Zac Fettig

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 12:37 PM

That probably sold for $50 just so they could get rid of it. They take up alot of space in your dining room.

 

I saw a 16mm Steenbeck being given away on craigslist about two years ago for just this reason.


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#17 Gregg MacPherson

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 04:29 PM

I just bought a 16mm Arriflex SB from NYU. I want to eventually shoot projects with dialogue..........PS. I would also love to edit the old school way. Are there any alternatives to a full steenbeck flatbed that would allow me to edit by cutting and splicing?

 

Matt,


You could do some rough sync shooting with your noisy,  non Xtal camera if you really wanted to.  Shooting a music video to playback for example.  But there is extra work tweaking the sync.   If you want to make some short dramas with lots of dialogue then you are better off getting a quiet running Xtal camera.  Maybe just borrow one at first.


 

Re the editing on film.  The other guys are a bit discouraging.  I think it depends on just how deeply or profoundly one is connected with the physicality of the film itself.   On a practical level you can learn the basic knowledge in one short project.   To see how strong your afinity is with it,  just shoot some very short project with your noisy Arri,  borrow some time on someones pic sync or flatbed and start cutting.  


 

Some of the facilities or people that you need may be very hard to find.  You may be forced to go with a hybrid film/digital working process


 


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#18 Christopher Sheneman

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 06:11 PM


 

Re the editing on film.  The other guys are a bit discouraging.  I think it depends on just how deeply or profoundly one is connected with the physicality of the film itself.   On a practical level you can learn the basic knowledge in one short project.   To see how strong your afinity is with it,  just shoot some very short project with your noisy Arri,  borrow some time on someones pic sync or flatbed and start cutting.  


 

That's beautiful nonsense, Greg. He'll get plenty "physically" connected loading those magazines, fixing a jam, paying $160+ to develop and transfer 10 minutes of 16mm.

 

There is an old indie saying that goes "A fool and his film stock are soon parted". So true.


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#19 Gregg MacPherson

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 06:37 PM

That's beautiful nonsense,.........

 

There is an old indie saying that goes "A fool and his film stock are soon parted". So true.

 

If Matt is curious about it just let him do it.  


The "fool and his film stock" saying   Why is this specially applicable here?


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#20 Christopher Sheneman

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 01:19 AM

If Matt is curious about it just let him do it.  


The "fool and his film stock" saying   Why is this specially applicable here?

Because he's asking for advice and I'm giving him advice. 


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