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GRAIN ISSUES WITH 2 PERF


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#1 Alex Birrell

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 11:10 AM

Hey everyone,

 

I will be shooting a short film shortly with a 2 perf configuration Panaflex for scope aspect ratio. We will doing an HD telecine for our post work and delivery. 

 

I have never shot 2 perf before and was wondering if anyone here had any experience of shooting 500T film in the format. I am a little concerned that the image could be excessively grainy and was planning to shoot a low ASA stock.

 

Thing is, it is a horror short and all the scenes are night exteriors and night interiors. We are going for a late 70s/early 80s vibe and I want to keep the image as dark and mood as possible (think Dean Cundey's work on John Carpenter's early films). For budgetary reasons we are going to shoot Fuji stock (yes, there is some still available in the UK) and for aesthetic reasons I want to use the Fuji Vivid stocks. I was thinking of using the 160T but am concerned about the amount of light I will need. The Fuji Vivid 500T is still available which is why I am wondering if anyone has any experience of its grain structure when shot in the 2 perf format.

 

Many thanks in advance,

 

Alex.


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#2 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 01:53 PM

It will look as grainy as it does in standard 35mm 1.85 more or less, same width negative just less tall. Rate 500T slower like at 320 ISO and you'll be fine, the grain will be there but not horrible.
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#3 David J Paradise

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 03:24 PM

The Fuji Vivid and Kodak Vision3 stocks are amazing and I think you'll be surprised at how good they look. You shouldn't have excessive grain issues with either Fuji 8573 or Kodak 5213.
I shot some 2-perf footage on a variety of stocks whilst testing a modified Arri 35BL4. Here's the Youtube link, standard telecine transfer:

Sean Bobbitt shot some Fuji 500T 8573 in 2-perf for the 2008 feature; Hunger:


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#4 Alex Birrell

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 03:56 PM

Many thanks for the replies!


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#5 Charles Zuzak

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 09:59 AM

If you're going for a late 70s/early 80s look you may want to keep all that grain.  Most movies from that era were quite grainy (unless you're talking about set design only).


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#6 Bruce Taylor

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 12:12 PM

Yes, what David says. The film real estate used in 2 perf and super 35 cropped to 2.35:1 are pretty close. Wikipedia has all the dimensions if you want to get down to precise differences. Kodak did a demo of 2 perf and 3 perf S35 comparisons several years ago, It was not possible for me to tell the difference between 2 perf and 3 perf super 35 cropped to 2.35.

 

I would think the grain in a modern 500 speed stock would quite a bit less than what you see in an actual '70's-80's low light film shot in 1.85.


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#7 Will Montgomery

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Posted 02 July 2013 - 09:10 AM

Only small issue is to make sure you're happy with framing when shooting and keep a clean gate! The savings is significant and worth trying.


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#8 Steve Zimmerman

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 01:29 PM

Just saw Spring Breakers on Blu Ray.  It was mostly 2-Perf scanned at 4k.  It looked great with smoother grain. 


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#9 Phillip Mosness

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 02:03 PM

Is there much benefit to a 4k scan of 2 perf? I would think more so with anamorphic, where the perportions could take advantage of 4k, but if someone can explain what the advantage is I'd love to know. 


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#10 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 11:51 PM

Oversampling will almost always give you a benefit; it's just a question is the benefit of having more information to play with is worth the added cost. For most projects; probably not, but for some, sure.


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#11 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 12:52 AM

Take a look at this old article:

http://www.creativep....com/node/44657

 

Though if you are more worried about grain rather than sharpness, a 2K scan may be a mild form of grain reduction since it won't resolve every grain in the image.


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#12 Zack Spiger

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Posted 09 December 2015 - 06:02 PM

Now that it's almost 2016, does anyone have any other examples of 2 perf films scanned at 4k?

 

How common is de-graining now for those who can't stomach all the texture?  

 

thanks! 


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#13 Jacob Zalutsky

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Posted 09 December 2015 - 09:32 PM

I'm curious about grain reduction and processes in scanning technology as well - More noticeably in 16mm sometimes I see transfers that are really clean in texture even with higher speed stocks - other transfers look quite grainy.

 

in the end of this very calming video by Kodak on 200t stocks they use something called "Arri relativity" technology - I have no idea who is using this tech, but looks good.

 

https://youtu.be/HNQ4Z4C-Kx0?t=13m13s


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#14 Will Montgomery

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 10:10 AM

Modern stocks shot well shouldn't have excessive grain (especially in 35). If the minor grain that is there is a problem, I would go digital. Film is just another tool in your belt; you can reduce grain digitally but why bother with film in the first place if grain needs to be completely avoided? A little grain is a thing of beauty but perhaps not perfect for every project.


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#15 Bill DiPietra

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 11:59 AM

Hey everyone,

 

I will be shooting a short film shortly with a 2 perf configuration Panaflex for scope aspect ratio. We will doing an HD telecine for our post work and delivery. 

 

I have never shot 2 perf before and was wondering if anyone here had any experience of shooting 500T film in the format. I am a little concerned that the image could be excessively grainy and was planning to shoot a low ASA stock.

 

Thing is, it is a horror short and all the scenes are night exteriors and night interiors. We are going for a late 70s/early 80s vibe and I want to keep the image as dark and mood as possible (think Dean Cundey's work on John Carpenter's early films). For budgetary reasons we are going to shoot Fuji stock (yes, there is some still available in the UK) and for aesthetic reasons I want to use the Fuji Vivid stocks. I was thinking of using the 160T but am concerned about the amount of light I will need. The Fuji Vivid 500T is still available which is why I am wondering if anyone has any experience of its grain structure when shot in the 2 perf format.

 

Many thanks in advance,

 

Alex.

 

As someone else stated, today's film stocks have become very fine-grained.  I've never shot on Fuji stocks, but I shot my most recent short on Kodak 16mm 500T (7219.)  And since I wanted a very grainy look, I wound up having to push it 2 stops in order to actually "see" the grain on a print.  I think I could have pushed it even further.

 

And that's very true about being period-specific.  If you're going for a John Carpenter kind of look, you may want to at least rate the film at 500T or even push it a stop.  It all depends on what you want the final film to look like.


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#16 Freya Black

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 02:24 PM

It's worth checking out "the house of the devil" which is a Super 16mm movie trying to look like a late 70's / early 80's horror movie and "The Innkeepers" which is a more modern looking horror movie from the same director but this time shot on 35mm 2perf.

 

Two very different and interesting horror movies shot on film relatively recently.

 

Although 2 years have passed for the original poster so hopefully they shot it by now.

If not good luck finding that Fuji stock now. ;)

 

Freya


Edited by Freya Black, 10 December 2015 - 02:25 PM.

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#17 charles g clark

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 04:23 AM

I'm curious about grain reduction and processes in scanning technology as well - More noticeably in 16mm sometimes I see transfers that are really clean in texture even with higher speed stocks - other transfers look quite grainy.
 
in the end of this very calming video by Kodak on 200t stocks they use something called "Arri relativity" technology - I have no idea who is using this tech, but looks good.
 
https://youtu.be/HNQ4Z4C-Kx0?t=13m13s


I believe that Arri relativity software was developed by cinnafilm and sold as part of the relativity suite (I think for about 50k)- before being resold by cinnafilm as part of their dark matter line of products.

There's an after effects version on their site, with demo's of it being used on s16- looks pretty good in the circumstances demonstrated- Shane hurlbut used it as part of the di process for act of valor (not the after effects version) to deal with texture management for the canon 5d footage.

www.cinnafilm.com

Ps this is just my recollection from investigating its use on a s16 project years ago so might not be 100% accurate!- and I have never used the products- someone else will have to chime in there
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