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16mm equipment conundrum - HELP!!!!

16mm Arri 16s Bolex Lens Kern

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#1 flavio filho

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 02:06 PM

Hello everybody.

I'm really into a difficult time just by thinking on selling my 16mm equipment.
I need to sell one or 2 of my 16mm cameras, and I need your opinion at this moment as it might help me to take a decision.

The gear:

 

1 Bolex EL + Kern Vario 16-100 POE + 2 MAGs + TakeUp Motor+ original Battery recelled by Chambless in USA (3X more battery time)
1 Bolex Rex 5 (Ultra and service by Bernie O'Doherty) + 10mm, 16mm and 25mm RX Kern Paillard Lenses

2 Arri 16s + 4 Mags + Kinopitik Tegea 5.7mm Lens + Schneider 10mm and 16mm Lens + Tobin TXM 22a Crystal Motor + 4 mags + 4 take up motors (one 12V and 3 8V)


I honestly think it's a lot of equipment and I won't use all of it (of course).
I've used the Bolex cameras already but not the Arris as they need fixing that would cost me £400... And I really want to use the Arriflex cams in the near future.

The thing is... I'm acquiring a BMC pocket version, to partly move to digital, and still be able to use some of my 16mm lenses on it.

SO... My initial idea is:

Sell both Bolex setups BUT keep only the Kern Vario 16-100 to use in the BMC (if there's a way of using it, not sure if an adapter exists?).
AND... keep Both Arri 16s and pay for the fixing... That would suffice my 16mm film needs(although quite noisy the cams can be silenced).


This way I can have some money, buy some other gear/lenses I need like a new tripod, a jib, etc and move on.

 

What would you guys do? And to sell, apart from eBay on your experience, would it be best to announce in here in Cinematography.com and try to get the best deal by serious buyers?

 

Please help! Thanks!

 

F


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#2 Rudy Velez Jr

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 05:14 PM

sorry to hear you have fallen on hard times man. Hopefully you can charge a pretty penny and just only sell one thing. Good Luck! 


Edited by Rudy Velez Jr, 27 May 2013 - 05:14 PM.

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#3 flavio filho

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 05:23 PM

Thanks Rudy.


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#4 Will Montgomery

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 09:07 AM

If you need the money, sell everything now. Prices are just going to go down from here. Sell everything then look for an inexpensive Arri SR1 or SR2 to hold on to when the cash situation solidifies in a few months. Plus you don't want to be spending money on film and transfer at the moment if funds are tight.


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#5 flavio filho

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 10:13 AM

Hi again will.

Thanks once more.

Yeah maybe sell everything (and keep one Arris S)... I do need the money but moreover, I want to make my gear work for me. Tired of seeing it in the cases... Since the lneses could be used in the BMCC Pocket, I'll keep them.

The Bolexes I want to sell as I want to use my Arris too. And I need £400 to fix them. I still want to use the little camera at least in one of my films soon.

Thanks,
Flavio
 


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#6 Will Montgomery

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 04:23 PM

I have a big problem holding on to gear too long so I totally understand. I'm not saying I could take my own advice. :)

 

I keep buying cameras and fixing them up only to sell them at little more than break-even. Not sure why I do it except that it keeps some film cameras alive.


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#7 flavio filho

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 07:49 AM

I have a big problem holding on to gear too long so I totally understand. I'm not saying I could take my own advice. :)

 

I keep buying cameras and fixing them up only to sell them at little more than break-even. Not sure why I do it except that it keeps some film cameras alive.

Exactly. And I'm with my stuff for so long and barely used them. I feel for having to sell, but anyway, digressing again...

WIll, I think you're probably the best one to ask this as you own the Zeiss lens and the footage I saw from it is simply AMAZING even for a Zoom lens... I was always more a Prime lens guy, but when it comes to Zeiss, things change drastically.

I'm divided between:

1. I crossed one Zeiss 11-110 S16 to buy, and I'd like to know how does it differ from yours converted 20-200? (apart from being s16 and has the advantage to reach 11mm, so it's wide and still faster, 2.2f/stop).

I'm trying to find footage of the 11-110 for comparison...

OR...

2. Buy a 50mm and a 75mm Kern Switar RX Primes, those will reach the price US$ 1.200,00 together. Plus the 25mm Kern I own, I will have the ideal 3 primes for my shorts and documentaries (although will demand more hard work and planning for shooting).

 

I know there's no comparison between a Zeiss and a set of Kern primes, but I'd like to hear from a pro anyway.
My intent is to shoot short films using the bmccp, BUT possibly a feature next year, and a documentary in between. The documentary would benefit from a ZOOM lens, of course, but regardless, I'd like to hear your thoughts, 'cause it would be a 3X more expensive investment, and I'd sell almost everything to buy one Zeiss 11-110 S16.

Thank you.
F

 


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#8 Will Montgomery

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 09:26 AM

I was always more a Prime lens guy, but when it comes to Zeiss, things change drastically.

The thing with zooms is that old zooms compared to old primes you're probably right that in general you'd get a better image with the prime. These days however, a modern zoom vs. an older prime you're more likely to get a better image with the zoom. This is a vast over generalization but when you're talking the older Arri standard mount prime glass vs. a newer PL zoom glass it's fairly true in my experience.

 

I do love that Zeiss 11-110. My 10-100 that was just converted to 12-120 by Serious Gear has a very similar profile. The 11-110 is basically a factory S16 upgrade of the 10-100 T2. Many of these 10-100 T2's were upgraded over the years so you'll find them on the market from time to time. There are also some Canon PL zooms that are pretty highly rated although I haven't used them.

 

I would try renting the lens you're interested in and doing some tests. Probably would cost you $150 for a weekend but well worth the effort before buying. I think once you use that 11-110 and do some comparisons with the Kern primes you'll be converted. I've shot with a full set of Schneider and Zeiss late 60's early 70's Arri standard mount primes for a while on my PL 35mm 2C but when I rented even just a semi-modern Zeiss Standard Speed I could immediately tell the difference and even more on the dailies.

 

If you are shooting a documentary then that Zeiss 11-110 was designed for that & news gathering so I'd recommend it. Plus it will hold value for a while.


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#9 flavio filho

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 10:10 AM

Thanks, WIll.

yeah, Zeiss is a Zeiss ain't it?

I wonder about your model, or the 11-110mm Zoom Zeiss S16 T2.2. 
And still there's the 10-100 Zoom Zeiss too: http://www.ebay.co.u...=item27cdd6844d

 

My second option wold be: http://www.ebay.co.u...984.m1438.l2649

 

This guy answered me saying: This lens has Arri Bayonet Mount, PLus PL mount adapter. The Extender is Bayonet Mount, You can either buy 4/3 PL adapter or Bayonet to 4/3.

 

Is that so? Just to understand, the lens then would work in it's full mode on any m4/3 camera?

In either case, I'm trying to figure out which lens would produce the sharper images.... Without need to convert the second option, so I save money too...

Thanks once more and sorry to make so many questions. :P

 


Edited by flavio filho, 03 June 2013 - 10:12 AM.

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#10 flavio filho

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 10:53 AM

 

Think I better simplify my question. And that lens are gone anyway, I didn't bet (damn!)

 

Seems the usual Zeiss Zoom to get on eBay would be these:
Carl Zeiss Vario-Sonar 10-100mm T/1.8 MKII T*

Carl Zeiss11-110mm Zoom Super16 Lens T2.2

Carl Zeiss 10-100 zoom lens 1.8 PL

 

I know the last one is a 11-110 and S16, but is T2.2...

And the others are both T1.8. But are 16mm, being one is a Vario-Sonar. 

All would produce great images. Just trying to figure out the main difference and pros/cons, or spot one that is not worth to be used in the BMCCP. Or even in the 4k using from 20mm up?

Thanks again, Will!


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#11 Chris Elardo

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 11:11 AM

This is an interesting topic. I have, and use, all the Switar prime presets for my Super 16 Bolex and also the 16-100mm POE zoom lens. I think they're all very nice- especially the 75mm prime. But what else would be a really good c-mount zoom for my camera? I'm not sure if there's a Zeiss that works for a Bolex-  is it mainly Angenieux?

 

Thanks!

Chris


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#12 Will Montgomery

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 02:37 PM

A Zeiss 10-100 T2 or even the T3 with a PL adapter will not cover Super 16 below a certain point; probably like 25mm or so. I'd bet there are some articles on this board from the early 2000's about that. The T2 can be converted for under $2000 so that may be a good option if you get a good deal on one.

 

I'm not sure what a good c-mount lens would be these days. I'd bet there are some really high quality optics in the medical equipment arena made today that might be really great. Older Angenieux c mount lenses don't generally hold up over the years so I'd have it checked out before buying any.


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#13 Chris Elardo

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 04:11 PM

Hmmmm... My Kern zoom is the same way- it starts to vignette at around 24mm down to 16mm. This short film I shot uses all of my Switars: 10, 26, 75mm primes and the zoom. I'd like to hear folks' opinion of the photography, though I'm sure many won't agree with the subject matter- :D

 


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#14 Will Montgomery

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 09:59 AM

I'd like to hear folks' opinion of the photography, though I'm sure many won't agree with the subject matter- :D

 

I always applaud the effort for shooting 16mm.

 

Probably worthy of a new thread but here are some observations:

 

The wide handheld shots in the beginning are really hard to watch and uninteresting. 16mm with inexpensive lenses (and YouTube) don't handle details well so it's hard to make out what's going on so far away; especially handheld.

 

When you get into some close shots it makes me want to watch more. When the guy is sitting on the chair you need more dolly/slider type/crane camera movement. Basically the shooting needs to come to life more which I know takes more effort and thought with film cameras. Also some of those tripod pans on the cemetery are uneven and distracting. Think dolly, not pan and maybe from lower angle with sliding closeups of graves cutting out to the wide shot.

 

On the content, politics aside, I think you need concrete examples of what you're talking about to make a stronger case. Just the "we all know that..." doesn't really mean anything. Do a little research and personalize it more if you want to convince someone of something. It's a little too preachy without substance. You know the subject really well so find some real life examples and really show how the government or whomever affected someone/something. Preaching to the choir is fine but I bet you'd rather actually convince someone of your point.


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#15 Chris Elardo

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 11:20 AM

When you get into some close shots it makes me want to watch more. When the guy is sitting on the chair you need more dolly/slider type/crane camera movement. Basically the shooting needs to come to life more which I know takes more effort and thought with film cameras. Also some of those tripod pans on the cemetery are uneven and distracting. Think dolly, not pan and maybe from lower angle with sliding closeups of graves cutting out to the wide shot.

 

I did this project on the weekends under a tight deadline - it's for a contest- and the whole time I was gritting my teeth wishing for a dolly or at least a spreader to get some movement. I just didn't have access to it and my equipment is pretty limited. There are several scenes I should have made more dynamic for sure. Thanks a lot for watching and for your helpful critique, Will!


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#16 flavio filho

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 11:52 AM

A Zeiss 10-100 T2 or even the T3 with a PL adapter will not cover Super 16 below a certain point; probably like 25mm or so. I'd bet there are some articles on this board from the early 2000's about that. The T2 can be converted for under $2000 so that may be a good option if you get a good deal on one.

 

I'm not sure what a good c-mount lens would be these days. I'd bet there are some really high quality optics in the medical equipment arena made today that might be really great. Older Angenieux c mount lenses don't generally hold up over the years so I'd have it checked out before buying any.

Hi WIll.

Thanks a lot for your answer.

I'm looking into the Zeiss Extender to use in that lesn. A seller said that is possible to get an extender to connect in the lens and it would work from 20-200?
I'd have to add a adapter for the BMCCP too... I wonder if that would actually work and the seller said it right? 
Which Extender are we talking about in this case?

Please let me know.

Thanks,
Flavio


Edited by flavio filho, 05 June 2013 - 11:54 AM.

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#17 Will Montgomery

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 02:09 PM

 

I did this project on the weekends under a tight deadline - it's for a contest-

I'm sure it'll be the only 16mm or film entry so you should get some props for that and a special category all to yourself.


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#18 Will Montgomery

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 02:12 PM

I'm looking into the Zeiss Extender to use in that lesn. A seller said that is possible to get an extender to connect in the lens and it would work from 20-200?
I'd have to add a adapter for the BMCCP too... I wonder if that would actually work and the seller said it right? 
Which Extender are we talking about in this case?

I know Serious Gear in Seattle can adapt the 10-100 T2 to about a 20-200 which will make it cover the Black Magic Cinema Camera in the complete range but it may affect the sharpness a little. That is a similar mod to the S16 conversion. I don't know of a simple extender tube specifically for this but it could exist.


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#19 flavio filho

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 11:02 AM

Thanks, Will.

I'm looking into some S16 options as I'd be covered in full... I just don't know the difference between the "Zeiss 11-110" and the Zeiss 11-110 "VARIO SONNAR"? Which model is newer? What is the difference between them?


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#20 Will Montgomery

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 12:42 PM

I think it's the same lens; I think they all are  "VARIO SONNAR".

 

The Zeiss 10-100 and 11-110 are very polarizing lenses...in the opinion sense. People that don't have them don't think that Zeiss can make a decent zoom, people that do have them seem to like them and like the more contrast from them vs. the Canon's. It really comes down to what YOU like, therefore I always recommend renting them to get to know them. I know that some of my sharpest 16mm shots ever have come from the little brother Zeiss 10-100 T3. Almost looked 3D to me. I just have a really good version probably and my SR2 is really tuned up well.

 

I hear great things about the Canon S16 Zooms and the probably breathe much less when focusing. All these PL S16 zooms seem to live in the same $3500-$6000 price range so rent away and run tests on your camera.


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