Jump to content


Photo

How to reduce film grain

super 8mm film grain film stock exposure

  • Please log in to reply
39 replies to this topic

#1 Marisa Aurora V

Marisa Aurora V

    New

  • Basic Members
  • Pip
  • 7 posts
  • Camera Operator

Posted 06 July 2013 - 09:31 AM

Hello every one. I shot this film in a Nikon r10 .

The camera hasn’t been used in 32 years so… as a result of these tests, I will get it checked as far as the lens and the mechanism goes. The thing is, I did expected to see some grain, but this is excessive right? The B&W is a reversal 200 ASA, and the color one is a Negative 250 daylight. I did use the auto exposure meter built in, in the camera. I shot it at 24fps and 59 fps (the b&w). Got it transferred at pro8mm and color corrected scene – to –scene.

So, if any one can share his or her ideas, pls do. I want to know what I did wrong not to repeat it again.

Thanks every one. 

this is the link to the video of the film

 

 

 

 


  • 0

#2 Jose luis villar

Jose luis villar
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 136 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • SPAIN

Posted 06 July 2013 - 09:51 AM

Several things can cause more or less grain. I have observed that the development is important. Also the telecine process and post production. The example shown, does not seem excessive grain but, if you want to decrease NEAT VIDEO is a good thing. Some grain is also nice, this is film not video.


  • 0

#3 David Cunningham

David Cunningham
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1049 posts
  • Cinematographer

Posted 06 July 2013 - 11:09 AM

Also keep in mind the difference between grain and noise. Some of this is likely CRT noise from the Millenium at pro8mm. It is a fairly noisy setup. For non-noise-reduced super 8, this does not look excessive. Super 8 is grainy.
  • 0

#4 Marisa Aurora V

Marisa Aurora V

    New

  • Basic Members
  • Pip
  • 7 posts
  • Camera Operator

Posted 06 July 2013 - 12:23 PM

thank you all!!!

I replayed it and in small formats is ok... it's when I watched it at a big screen that worried me... I guess the eye has to get used to the grain coming from the digital era.

 

Do you think this film was noised reduced?? how do I get results like that... I am really enjoing this format... just want to really get the best of it =)

 

I really like the texture in this one, even if you blow the image screen size or on to your tv....

 

 

In this pice I am sure there was lighting involve, because it was a photo shoot, but any comments as far as the latitude and best exposure rate will be much appreciated. 

 

 

thanks and best wishes all the way from Mexico =)


  • 0

#5 Marisa Aurora V

Marisa Aurora V

    New

  • Basic Members
  • Pip
  • 7 posts
  • Camera Operator

Posted 06 July 2013 - 12:27 PM

Hey!!! Jose Luis Villar!!! I think you actually shot the second video!!!! =)) yeiiiii that makes me really happy!!!!! plssss do tell me more about it!!!!!


  • 0

#6 Andries Molenaar

Andries Molenaar
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 671 posts
  • Industry Rep
  • Amsterdam

Posted 06 July 2013 - 02:50 PM

Cameras don't produce grain. Unless it was terribly under-exposed due to the auto-exposure not working properly.

 

The problem likely lies in this line : "Got it transferred at pro8mm and color corrected scene – to –scene."

You got it developed/processed by them too?


  • 0

#7 David Mullen ASC

David Mullen ASC
  • Sustaining Members
  • 19769 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles

Posted 06 July 2013 - 05:00 PM

There is some weird exposure or processing thing going on (or the film was aged) where parts of the color footage look very underexposed and corrected back to normal.


  • 0

#8 Marisa Aurora V

Marisa Aurora V

    New

  • Basic Members
  • Pip
  • 7 posts
  • Camera Operator

Posted 06 July 2013 - 06:21 PM

the film was new, just purchased it from pro 8mm.... it was also developed and transferred there.

 

I am going to send the camera to service, because it has a built in features that ables the camera to under expose the film by 1 or 2 stops and the wheel is currently stucked.

And Considering what David Mullen said... it must be it. As I said it is a camera that hasn't run in 32 years ! And I did exposed everything on the built in light meter . 

 

i will also double check what processes and how are they been handle by pro 8. 

thank you all on your responses they have been much helpfull. 

If any one has any comments on the latitude and best exposure for the 8mm film, be welcome ;)


  • 0

#9 David Mullen ASC

David Mullen ASC
  • Sustaining Members
  • 19769 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles

Posted 06 July 2013 - 07:32 PM

It may be useful to shoot some reversal so that you can project the original and see if the exposures are accurate.


  • 0

#10 Marisa Aurora V

Marisa Aurora V

    New

  • Basic Members
  • Pip
  • 7 posts
  • Camera Operator

Posted 06 July 2013 - 08:59 PM

thanks!!!!! the B&W is actully reversal!!!

=)


  • 0

#11 Richard Hadfield

Richard Hadfield
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 31 posts
  • Other

Posted 06 July 2013 - 10:13 PM

I think the footage you shot, shows that your camera is underexposing by at least two stops on the 250D roll of film. 

I bet your camera, has only ever had Kodachrome inside of  it, and is stuck at a  40asa setting.  Try to go by, if you live in L.A., or call Spectra Film and Video and try their Fuji Velvia 50D reversal.  The people there are very helpful.  If your camera is stuck on 40asa,  the Velvia should come out looking much better, than the 250D. 

For negative Kodak film stock, slight overexposure  can actually reduce grain and a lower ASA negative stock will have less grain.  You might want to try the Kodak Vision3 50D.   I think it is one of the least grainy films available.  If like I suspect, your camera is stuck on 40asa, the Kodak Vision3 50D will come out perfectly slighly over-exposed. 

If you live in L.A. swing by Kodak in Hollywood, you can buy one roll of Kodak 50D for  $17.16  If you're a student it's only $12.01 a roll.

Tri-X reversal is $13.50 and $9.45 for students if you buy the film directly from Kodak.  There is a toll free number if you're not in L.A.

In regards to your Nikon R10.  If you know somebody with really strong fingers, they might be able to loosen the exposure compensation dial.  Those dials are notorious  for becoming stiff when not used  for long periods of time.  I have the same camera and mine loosened up after I rotated it back and forth a few dozen times but when I got the camera, at first,  I could barely get it to move.


Edited by Richard Hadfield, 06 July 2013 - 10:16 PM.

  • 0

#12 Marisa Aurora V

Marisa Aurora V

    New

  • Basic Members
  • Pip
  • 7 posts
  • Camera Operator

Posted 06 July 2013 - 11:47 PM

Thanks!! that is very helpful too. I will try those films stocks, I just have one more question for you. What do you mean that my camera is stucked in a 40 asa? I will have it checked...

And I am already trying to loosen up the wheel know that i know I can force it a little bit with out damage.

in your experience do you under expose by a 1/3 of a stop or you go all the way to 1/2 .....

thanks for every body's answer they are all very helpful.... much to do know.


  • 0

#13 David Mullen ASC

David Mullen ASC
  • Sustaining Members
  • 19769 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles

Posted 07 July 2013 - 12:56 AM

If the camera was stuck at 40 ASA, the 250D stock would be 2 2/3's stops overexposed, and it looks underexposed to me.


  • 0

#14 Andries Molenaar

Andries Molenaar
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 671 posts
  • Industry Rep
  • Amsterdam

Posted 07 July 2013 - 05:37 AM

Thanks!! that is very helpful too. I will try those films stocks, I just have one more question for you. What do you mean that my camera is stucked in a 40 asa? I will have it checked...

And I am already trying to loosen up the wheel know that i know I can force it a little bit with out damage.

in your experience do you under expose by a 1/3 of a stop or you go all the way to 1/2 .....

thanks for every body's answer they are all very helpful.... much to do know.

Don't forget to push the unlock button when rotating this correction dial :)

 

Considering the reputation of pro8mm you should first shoot some standard film like Tri-x and have it processed at a different place. Saves a factor three on the expences.   You might also do manual set exposure... Use a lightmeter and voilá. Do some clips with 1 and 2 stops up and down. Take notes.


  • 0

#15 Andries Molenaar

Andries Molenaar
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 671 posts
  • Industry Rep
  • Amsterdam

Posted 07 July 2013 - 05:41 AM


If you live in L.A. swing by Kodak in Hollywood, you can buy one roll of Kodak 50D for  $17.16  If you're a student it's only $12.01 a roll.

Tri-X reversal is $13.50 and $9.45 for students if you buy the film directly from Kodak.  There is a toll free number if you're not in L.A.
 

Some enviable prices on Kodak film. This is ex sales tax I assume?

It almost seems as if Kodak film is gold lubed here in Europe. Maybe the resellers have gold lubed cars :)


  • 0

#16 Jeremy Cavanagh

Jeremy Cavanagh
  • Sustaining Members
  • 128 posts
  • Other

Posted 07 July 2013 - 07:10 AM

If you live in L.A. swing by Kodak in Hollywood, you can buy one roll of Kodak 50D for  $17.16  If you're a student it's only $12.01 a roll.

Tri-X reversal is $13.50 and $9.45 for students if you buy the film directly from Kodak.  There is a toll free number if you're not in L.A.

 

You are lucky. Here in London I haven't figured out where to buy 50D on super 8 though a mate has used it.

 

You would think Kodak would try and get as much 50D out there as possible or am I just being naive.


  • 0

#17 Jeremy Cavanagh

Jeremy Cavanagh
  • Sustaining Members
  • 128 posts
  • Other

Posted 07 July 2013 - 07:14 AM

If you live in L.A. swing by Kodak in Hollywood, you can buy one roll of Kodak 50D for  $17.16  If you're a student it's only $12.01 a roll.

Tri-X reversal is $13.50 and $9.45 for students if you buy the film directly from Kodak.  There is a toll free number if you're not in L.A. 

Forgot to ask, the prices, were they for 16 mm rolls or 8 carts?


  • 0

#18 Andries Molenaar

Andries Molenaar
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 671 posts
  • Industry Rep
  • Amsterdam

Posted 07 July 2013 - 08:41 AM

You are lucky. Here in London I haven't figured out where to buy 50D on super 8 though a mate has used it.

 

You would think Kodak would try and get as much 50D out there as possible or am I just being naive.

BlueCiné tech is in London... Prices are good for Europe. If the UK is in Europe:)

Check ebay or his webshop.

 

I am not sure if he does over the counter sales.

Should save a 10% on ebay and 4% on paypal.


Edited by Andries Molenaar, 07 July 2013 - 08:42 AM.

  • 0

#19 Richard Hadfield

Richard Hadfield
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 31 posts
  • Other

Posted 07 July 2013 - 02:13 PM

Forgot to ask, the prices, were they for 16 mm rolls or 8 carts?

Those were the prices for Super 8 carts, without tax.  The tax in California is around 9%.  The three super 8 Vision3 stocks that Kodak sells directly from their Hollywood location, are all the same price $17.16 plus tax.  For students Vision3 Super 8  is $12.01 plus tax.

 

Below is the Hollywood location's Kodak Motion Picture Film price list  for  16mm  

 

The prices for 16mm direct from Kodak are as follows:

 

All Vision3 100'  $37.57 ----For students $26.30

All Vision3 400'  $146.18---For students $102.33

 

Tri-X 100'  $26.20---For students $18.34

Tri-X 400'  $99.56---Forr students $69.70

 

Double-X 100' $24.40---For students $17.08  (film code 7222)
Double-X 400' $97.60---For students $68.32

 

High Contrast Positive 400' $53.25---For students $37.27 (film code 7363)

 


Edited by Richard Hadfield, 07 July 2013 - 02:16 PM.

  • 0

#20 Richard Hadfield

Richard Hadfield
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 31 posts
  • Other

Posted 07 July 2013 - 02:29 PM

If the camera was stuck at 40 ASA, the 250D stock would be 2 2/3's stops overexposed, and it looks underexposed to me.

You are absolutely correct.  That was a very misleading posts that I made about a possible problem with the camera owned by Marisa Aurora V..  If the Nikon R10 was stuck in the 40asa position it would severly over-expose the film.   The footage Marisa Aurora V,  posted looked grainy and  under-exposed.   So that was not the problem  

A Nikon R10 I owed would only correctly exposed film rated at 40asa or 64asa.  My camera might not have had the same problem.  It still might be worth a try to see what happens with that camera with a lower asa film.


Edited by Richard Hadfield, 07 July 2013 - 02:34 PM.

  • 0



Ritter Battery

Paralinx LLC

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Abel Cine

CineTape

Willys Widgets

Rig Wheels Passport

rebotnix Technologies

Metropolis Post

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Visual Products

Technodolly

Glidecam

Wooden Camera

CineLab

Aerial Filmworks

FJS International, LLC

Opal

The Slider

Tai Audio

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

CineLab

Opal

Visual Products

Paralinx LLC

Technodolly

The Slider

Willys Widgets

Rig Wheels Passport

Aerial Filmworks

rebotnix Technologies

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Glidecam

Tai Audio

FJS International, LLC

Broadcast Solutions Inc

CineTape

Ritter Battery

Wooden Camera

Metropolis Post

Abel Cine