Jump to content


Photo

Deterioration/Fragmentation

5D Man on Fire David Slade Deterioration

  • Please log in to reply
6 replies to this topic

#1 Sandeep Sajeev

Sandeep Sajeev

    New

  • Basic Members
  • Pip
  • 3 posts
  • Director

Posted 11 August 2013 - 08:02 AM

Hello,

 

I'm an editor, not a cinematographer, and I'm looking for some advice. I'm making my first personal short film and I would like to convey the deterioration/fragmentation of a relationship between 2 people. The film is going to be about a minute long, and there is no dialogue. I have directed quite a lot of non-fiction for Television and the web in the past, but this is my first foray into fiction.

 

I am still in the process of finalizing my story, but I was thinking about the way Tony Scott/Paul Cameron use the camera in Man on Fire/Beat the Devil, and David Slade's strobe effect that he uses in Hard Candy and in almost all his music videos, and while it may be a bit too much for my purposes as my film is basically a love story, I feel that there might be something there for points in my film where things start to fall apart for my main characters.

 

All my reading indicates that this is a film camera effect? Is this not possible on the 5D?

 

Thanks in Advance!

 

Sandeep.

 

 


  • 0

#2 Phil Rhodes

Phil Rhodes
  • Sustaining Members
  • 11947 posts
  • Other

Posted 11 August 2013 - 08:11 AM

The Man on Fire stuff I think you're probably referring to was shot on an old hand-cranked camera. They'd shoot some stuff, wind back with a board held over the lens, then reexpose forward again, using deliberately uneven cranking technique. It's all on the DVD extras, and you should probably have a look at it

 

You can simulate this electronically - shoot it all normally, then just start layering stuff up in your edit software, using an additive transfer mode (try various modes for different, potentially interesting effects). You can't precisely simulate the effects of uneven hand-cranking, but you can usually get close enough just by chopping your take up and assigning different speeds to various parts of it. If you need better, you can do interpolated speed changes in something like After Effects. The variable exposure and stop-flashes of the technique can be simulated with curves or levels, or you can bounce the iris or use a variable ND (crossed polarisers) if you want to do it in the analogue domain (which might be nicer).

 

So, electronically, it's not an in-camera technique, it's a postproduction technique, but it's totally doable.

 

P

 

Edit: Someone's put a video up demonstrating it: 


  • 1

#3 Sandeep Sajeev

Sandeep Sajeev

    New

  • Basic Members
  • Pip
  • 3 posts
  • Director

Posted 11 August 2013 - 09:19 AM

Thank you Phil, I appreciate the insight and the Youtube link. Actually, I have been able to get pretty close in the edit to something similar to the cranking effect, but I was wondering if there was a way to do it in camera, so that I'd know during the shoot whether I was getting what I wanted. Hence the question.

 

Any thoughts on the Slade/Hard Candy effect and it's feasibility on the 5D? I found this thread here:

 

http://www.cinematog...showtopic=23959

 

Joseph Zizzo says:
 

ts an 11º shutter, its sort of one of the director's trademarks. you need an extra 4 stops, though, so plan for it. its definitely nothing to take lightly, especially on an interior - you'll be surprised at just how much light you have to pump in, and if you shoot high speed as well its worse. definitely use a photometrics table, and leave yourself a few extra footcandles, if you can afford to. its worth the trouble if you have the right subject, its an amazing look for a video. scroll down to find the videos called "feeing good" and "hypermusic" by the band muse:

http://www.microcuts.net/uk/videos

 

Any insight would be much appreciated.

 

Thanks,

Sandeep.


  • 0

#4 Phil Rhodes

Phil Rhodes
  • Sustaining Members
  • 11947 posts
  • Other

Posted 11 August 2013 - 09:40 AM

There's no way to do it in camera with a DSLR. It relies on double exposures and the timing and exposure changes inherent to a hand cranked film camera. A company called Kinetta once discussed a digital camera that was to have a hand crank option, and it's technically feasible to do it, but they never actually built one. If they had, you could have at least got the speed and exposure changes, but you'd still be putting the multiple layers together afterward.

 

It's a post effect.

 

You can certainly do narrow shutter angle effects. A "normal" shutter speed for video is half of the frame rate (equal to 180 degree shutter). At 24fps, that's 1/48, although the nearest selection on most stills cameras, which will look the same, will be 1/50. Anything shorter than that and you're into narrow shutter territory, although 90 degrees (1/100) can suffer from exessive subtlety, depending on the subject.

 

The thing is, any of these techniques rely not only on the technique itself but also what you choose to shoot with it. The narrow shutter angle looks interesting on the drummer in those Muse videos, for instance, because he's moving quickly and it would ordinarily motivate a lot of motion blur. If you shoot someone wandering slowly down a street, it's probably not going to do much for you.  The defining example of this is the opening battle sequence of Saving Private Ryan, where there's lots of explosions going off and throwing debris in the air, which really sells the effect.

 

P


  • 1

#5 Simon Wyss

Simon Wyss
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1417 posts
  • Other
  • Basel, Switzerland

Posted 11 August 2013 - 09:48 AM

Why superficial when it’s about something emotional?

 

I should choose an opposite way with one extended shot portraying the two characters. I’d try to show them on the peak of their relation just introducing the pain that will sever.

 

Set the camera on sticks, pour light over the two, and catch the fugitive moment, if you can.


  • 0

#6 Sandeep Sajeev

Sandeep Sajeev

    New

  • Basic Members
  • Pip
  • 3 posts
  • Director

Posted 11 August 2013 - 10:04 AM

You can certainly do narrow shutter angle effects. A "normal" shutter speed for video is half of the frame rate (equal to 180 degree shutter). At 24fps, that's 1/48, although the nearest selection on most stills cameras, which will look the same, will be 1/50. Anything shorter than that and you're into narrow shutter territory, although 90 degrees (1/100) can suffer from exessive subtlety, depending on the subject.

 

The thing is, any of these techniques rely not only on the technique itself but also what you choose to shoot with it. The narrow shutter angle looks interesting on the drummer in those Muse videos, for instance, because he's moving quickly and it would ordinarily motivate a lot of motion blur. If you shoot someone wandering slowly down a street, it's probably not going to do much for you.  The defining example of this is the opening battle sequence of Saving Private Ryan, where there's lots of explosions going off and throwing debris in the air, which really sells the effect.

 

P

 

Thanks for the explanation.

 

I was thinking about shooting them at night on the streets of Mumbai, there'll be lots of traffic etc in the background, so I was looking to bring the chaos that surrounds them to the fore so to speak. I will take my little Canon T2i out on the street and see what changing the shutter does in this case.

 

 

Why superficial when it’s about something emotional?

 

I should choose an opposite way with one extended shot portraying the two characters. I’d try to show them on the peak of their relation just introducing the pain that will sever.

 

Set the camera on sticks, pour light over the two, and catch the fugitive moment, if you can.

 

Hi Simon,

 

Appreciate your suggestion. I am exploring their relationship from the point of view of a shared history within a city, so almost all of it will be filmed outdoors. I also want to focus on the many small moments, good and bad, that shape one's relationship with another person. So I feel like I have quite a lot to get through in a short amount of time.

 

But your point is very valid, and I have been told the same by others as well. I am trying to figure out how I want to deal with the story, and sometimes I find that thinking about technique helps when I'm searching for clarity.

 

Best,

Sandeep.


  • 0

#7 Phil Rhodes

Phil Rhodes
  • Sustaining Members
  • 11947 posts
  • Other

Posted 11 August 2013 - 10:22 AM

 night

 

...but of course, every time you halve the shutter time, you cost yourself a stop of light.

 

I've seen some great stuff shot in Mumbai, though. I've never been there, but from what I've seen you have a lot of variety in how you choose to portray the place.


  • 0



Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: 5D, Man on Fire, David Slade, Deterioration

Ritter Battery

FJS International, LLC

rebotnix Technologies

CineTape

Glidecam

Abel Cine

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Wooden Camera

Opal

Visual Products

The Slider

CineLab

Technodolly

Metropolis Post

Rig Wheels Passport

Aerial Filmworks

Paralinx LLC

Willys Widgets

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Tai Audio

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Ritter Battery

Wooden Camera

CineLab

rebotnix Technologies

Metropolis Post

The Slider

Paralinx LLC

Technodolly

Abel Cine

Glidecam

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Tai Audio

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Visual Products

Aerial Filmworks

Opal

CineTape

FJS International, LLC

Willys Widgets

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Rig Wheels Passport