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Canon 514XL stock and function - new user

super 8 8mm canon 514xl film stock

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#1 Jeff DeNapoli

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 04:20 PM

Greetings,

 

I was recently given a Canon 514XL camera. I am familiar with still film in general but am not clear on how this camera works with various stocks and I have no manual. I know the cam works as I have run a roll of Tri-X through it and got it developed successfully.

 

That being said I am not interested in taking black and white at this time. I am going to Las Vegas in January and want to get a couple cartidges of color film to shoot outdoors on the strip (during the day) as well as inside on various casino floors.

 

I have been browsing the forums and it seems like Vision3 50D would be good for daylight/outdoor and possibly 200T or 500T for inside, but I am not sure as I have no experience with either.

 

What is confusing me is how my particular camera will treat these films. I have been reading about needing an 85 filter for the T films, but I'm not sure if the 514XL has that built-in or not? I'm not even sure if the cam will support these cartridges due to the issue of setting the ASA correctly with the notches, etc.

 

In addition, I've read on this forum that it might be better to just use the higher-ASA rated T films with a screw on filter instead of using two different stocks.

 

As far as grain goes, I honeslty don't care. I like grain (within reason) and this is a personal project. It adds a certain character so reducing grain across lighting scenarios is not my primary goal. If it's clean, great. Light to moderate grain, great also.

 

I am really hoping a nice gentle soul on this forum will offer some guidance to an amateur who is new to this area. I was going to post in the new user forum but this sub-forum seemed more approriate. Mods can move thread if necessary.

 

Thanks!


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#2 Jeff DeNapoli

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 05:09 PM

After re-reading this thread (http://www.cinematog...showtopic=59592) it seems like my best bet for this scenario would be to get a few rolls of 500T to be safe inside with the low light levels, and then a screw-on 85 filter for when I am outside during the day (thank you David Cunningham).

 

Does that sound like a good approach? I am wondering if I will also need an ND filter for outdoors with the 500T or if the camera will expose properly without it.

 

Thanks again.


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#3 Tim Tyler

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 05:29 PM

I found a PDF scan of the 514 SOUND version of that camera that might be helpful.

 

http://www.apecity.c...n_af514xl-s.pdf


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#4 Jeff DeNapoli

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 05:30 PM

I found a PDF scan of the 514 SOUND version of that camera that might be helpful.

 

http://www.apecity.c...n_af514xl-s.pdf

thank you Tim I will check it out!


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#5 Anthony Schilling

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 08:40 PM

The manual says that it will read up to 250ASA. The 50D and 200T wil be over expose by 1/3rd stop which is typical of most S8 cameras and actually a good thing for negative film. The 500T will be over exposed by 1 stop so you can manually compensate if your able to set your own F stops... If your 500T is reading f16, you'll need to set your f-stop 1 stop higher at f22. I loved in Vegas, to here's how I would do it...

Bright daylight- 50D

Strip at night- 200T will get good shots of the neon, you'll be between f2.8-4. 500T will get street scenes at night but you will leave it wide open. you will need 500T inside the casinos wide open as well. Unless your using a lighting kit, the fast films won't over expose in existing light indoors or at night.

 

You'll need to have your film transferred which can run about $400 or more for 8 rolls to HD. I can give you a good 720P transfer for $15 per roll without any color grading, or $20 per roll with grading.

http://www.silentfilmworks.com/


Edited by Anthony Schilling, 26 November 2013 - 08:41 PM.

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#6 Jeff DeNapoli

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 09:11 AM

The manual says that it will read up to 250ASA. The 50D and 200T wil be over expose by 1/3rd stop which is typical of most S8 cameras and actually a good thing for negative film. The 500T will be over exposed by 1 stop so you can manually compensate if your able to set your own F stops... If your 500T is reading f16, you'll need to set your f-stop 1 stop higher at f22. I loved in Vegas, to here's how I would do it...

Bright daylight- 50D

Strip at night- 200T will get good shots of the neon, you'll be between f2.8-4. 500T will get street scenes at night but you will leave it wide open. you will need 500T inside the casinos wide open as well. Unless your using a lighting kit, the fast films won't over expose in existing light indoors or at night.

 

You'll need to have your film transferred which can run about $400 or more for 8 rolls to HD. I can give you a good 720P transfer for $15 per roll without any color grading, or $20 per roll with grading.

http://www.silentfilmworks.com/

 

Thanks for the input Anthony! This gives me a good framework to work with and I appreciate the explanations. Sounds like I should just grab one or two of each type (50D, 200T, 500T) and changeas the situation requires. Since the cartridges are lightproof, can I swap them mid-roll or is that a bad idea (assuming I remember to adjust settings properly each time)?

 

The transfer option is attractive as well. I got the first Tri-X roll processed/developed at Spectra, so I could do that again and then send to you strictly for transfer?

 

Again, thanks for your input.


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#7 Larry Wilson

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 10:30 AM

 

Thanks for the input Anthony! This gives me a good framework to work with and I appreciate the explanations. Sounds like I should just grab one or two of each type (50D, 200T, 500T) and changeas the situation requires. Since the cartridges are lightproof, can I swap them mid-roll or is that a bad idea (assuming I remember to adjust settings properly each time)?

 

The transfer option is attractive as well. I got the first Tri-X roll processed/developed at Spectra, so I could do that again and then send to you strictly for transfer?

 

Again, thanks for your input.

Swapping the cartridges out is incredibly easy. The only thing that will happen is you will lose three or four frames and get one of those flashes you see with film. But yeah, that would be an excellent way to work.

 

You've probably also noticed that there's a great deal of trickery involved with manipulating the exposure due to the entire EE Lock system. You actually have to trick the aperture into opening up or closing down to the f/stop you want, then hold the EE Lock lever while you shoot. Why Canon didn't give the camera a conventional manual exposure control like every other camera is beyond me.

 

Fortunately, negative stock is so flexible that you can fire and forget, if you want. I actually got some excellent results with Vision2 200T in a shack lit by a single 60W bulb in the dead of night using a 514XL-S. It was my first roll of Super-8 that I'd shot in over ten years, and it got me hooked all over again. If I can remember the Youtube link to that footage, I'll post it.


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#8 Jeff DeNapoli

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 10:38 AM

Swapping the cartridges out is incredibly easy. The only thing that will happen is you will lose three or four frames and get one of those flashes you see with film. But yeah, that would be an excellent way to work.

 

You've probably also noticed that there's a great deal of trickery involved with manipulating the exposure due to the entire EE Lock system. You actually have to trick the aperture into opening up or closing down to the f/stop you want, then hold the EE Lock lever while you shoot. Why Canon didn't give the camera a conventional manual exposure control like every other camera is beyond me.

 

Fortunately, negative stock is so flexible that you can fire and forget, if you want. I actually got some excellent results with Vision2 200T in a shack lit by a single 60W bulb in the dead of night using a 514XL-S. It was my first roll of Super-8 that I'd shot in over ten years, and it got me hooked all over again. If I can remember the Youtube link to that footage, I'll post it.

 

Great input thanks Larry. I'm feeling pretty comfortable now about shooting this thing with the films mentioned whereas yesterday I had no idea. I'd love to see the footage of the 200T on the 514 if you can find the link, since it's basically the same (vision2 vs. vision3) as what I'll be doing.

 

If I wanted to stick with the one stock, 200T, do you think using a combo 0.6ND/85B filter like the one below would produce good results in daylight on the 200T, then I could just pull it for the indoor stuff?

 

http://www.bhphotovi...al_Density.html


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#9 Anthony Schilling

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 11:25 AM

You should be fine sticking to 200T outside in the daytime without any ND filters, since it's winter and the sun will be low, or you'll be in shade. 7213 is rated 125asa with the 85 filter and your camera will rate it at 100asa.


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#10 Jeff DeNapoli

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 11:33 AM

You should be fine sticking to 200T outside in the daytime without any ND filters, since it's winter and the sun will be low, or you'll be in shade. 7213 is rated 125asa with the 85 filter and your camera will rate it at 100asa.

 

Good to know. Thank Anthony. And that will save me some bucks on the weird combo filter too. Would you still recommend a screw on 85 or 85b vs. the built-in which (according to reading) reduces the quality?


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#11 Anthony Schilling

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 11:48 AM

The Vision2 super 8 stocks used to automatically disable the built in filters and you had to use an external. The Vision3 carts now allow you to use the internal filter. At first i was intent on using my external 85B, but decided to try the built in filter and it came out perfect. It's also a lot more convenient.


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#12 Jeff DeNapoli

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 12:42 PM

The Vision2 super 8 stocks used to automatically disable the built in filters and you had to use an external. The Vision3 carts now allow you to use the internal filter. At first i was intent on using my external 85B, but decided to try the built in filter and it came out perfect. It's also a lot more convenient.

 

Cool I'll give it a shot! :D


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#13 Anthony Schilling

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 05:03 PM

I love the 50D, it's perfect for bright sun in the summer time and the grain is really tight. But you won't really be able to make good use of it unless you take a day trip out to the desert. The great thing about 200T is that it is surprisingly fine grain for it's extra speed. Working with both stocks quite a bit lately, I have a hard time distinguishing between the two a lot of the time. The grain structure of the 200T is only very slightly grainier than the 50D.


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#14 Jeff DeNapoli

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 05:11 PM

I love the 50D, it's perfect for bright sun in the summer time and the grain is really tight. But you won't really be able to make good use of it unless you take a day trip out to the desert. The great thing about 200T is that it is surprisingly fine grain for it's extra speed. Working with both stocks quite a bit lately, I have a hard time distinguishing between the two a lot of the time. The grain structure of the 200T is only very slightly grainier than the 50D.

 

yeah - starting to sound like the 200T is a winner in terms of latitude (at least for how i'll be using it). i will probably wind up getting a few of those and possibly try out a 500T. but i do want to compare the built in daylight filter with a screw-on while using the 200T outdoor, just to see if there is a noticeable difference. The 43mm 85b filters aren't too pricey.

 

thanks again for all the input on this from everyone. i'm excited to shoot and feel pretty good about getting some great looking footage.


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#15 Anthony Schilling

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 07:54 PM

The internal 85 filter will give you the correct daylight temperature... It's the industry standard, however the 85B is actually the official correct daylight conversion filter and is slightly warmer than the 85. Not a bad idea to try both and find out what you like better.


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