Jump to content


Photo

K3 Tri-X Footage - Comments??


  • Please log in to reply
9 replies to this topic

#1 Matthew B Clark

Matthew B Clark
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 189 posts
  • Other
  • Chicago, IL

Posted 20 December 2013 - 12:18 AM

Hello everyone!  I shot this daylight spool of 7266 Tri-X on my Krasnogorsk-3 16mm camera, stock Meteor zoom, on one very cold and overcast day using natural light.  Please take a look (and a listen - I placed a track of my questions and explained what filters each shot used in the audio track).

 

http://vimeo.com/82351072

 

Please let me know your thoughts.  I'm especially curious about:

 

-My focus on zooms: Why does my zoom shot seem to wobble in and out of focus on the lamp?  The chairs?  But the house stays the same focus when zoomed?

 

-Gate Cleaning: Tonight I cleaned under the pressure plate, inside that little metal rectangle the films presses against (I assume this hole is "the gate"), swiping around the edges rather briskly with a Q-tip, getting up around the corners etc.  Is this a fair "cleaning"?  And what is that "frosted" looking metal surface just inside the gate sitting  at a 45 degree angle?  You see it on the top of the gate right as you peer into it, and it seems to aim downward.  I pushed the Q-tip into that gently a few times, and I REALLY hope I didn't screw with some "optically essential" and thereby delicate piece there in doing so....

 

Anywho, best to all of you out there reading my questions.  Help is always appreciated. 

 

PS, I want to snag a Pentax Super Takumar 50mm/1.4 M42 lens....but what is that little "pin" on some models of Pentax M42 lenses?  Is that going to affect me placing it on my M42 mount K-3?  I really want to take advantage of that amazing little piece of reasonably affordable glass...but in doing so, I want to make sure I have my bases above covered.  I don't want to be backing up my camera a mile and shooting zoomed stuff with super shallow depth of field on the 50mm prime lens and see all that wobble effect on the lamps and chairs I mentioned in the video, you know what I mean?  I guess I am just looking to obtain control over a steady, narrow depth of field.  Steady...and narrow.  And steady.  Did I mention steady and narrow?

 

Best....


  • 0

#2 Nicholas Kovats

Nicholas Kovats
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 507 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Shoot film! facebook.com/UltraPan8WidescreenFilm

Posted 20 December 2013 - 11:12 AM

Thanks for choosing film, Matthew.

 

Your optics are fine. The film is actually weaving in and out slightly in the gate or what we call breathing. I believe the K3 spring wound motor does not provide for a consistent motor "speed" in conjunction with the Russian designed pressure plate. 

 

The film path/transport could be building up an electrostatic charge which attracts the microscopic dust and hair particles into the gate. I don't know to reduce this effect and it tends to be common to film cameras in general. Perhaps someone will chip in with some practical advice.

 

Your footage also has some underexposure. However when the exposure is correct your first time footage is quite lovely. The Tri-X exemplifies the romantic compressed latitude of b/w reversal film.  

 

Don't worry about the 50mm pin. It is designed to work with the 35mm still camera regarding shutter and/or aperture lock or something in that manner. It should work fine on your K3 M42 mount (no effect) and will provide for a slight telephoto magnification effect. It will be wobbly if handheld. Your choice. 

 

I have this camera, zoom and the amazing 8mm wide angle. But I have never used and it sits on my shelf. Such is the life of my neglected K3 amongst my numerous cameras. My current 16mm cameras of choice are customized Bolex, i.e. https://vimeo.com/81306448

 

Keep shooting film! 


  • 0

#3 Matthew B Clark

Matthew B Clark
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 189 posts
  • Other
  • Chicago, IL

Posted 20 December 2013 - 11:46 AM

Ah, so the film - not running through the camera at precisely constant speeds - is perhaps minutely over/under-exposing particular frames or groups of frames?  Thus causing this "breathing effect" of widening or glowing highlights?  It would make sense because the image seems to me stable, but there is a warbling glow....

 

Your 100D footage looks really vibrant.  I shot some super 8 100D in an old Nizo 136xl, and it did the same thing that this did...it looks like you said in your comments - like it has inky blacks.  I wish they still made something like this stock (100D) because I'd like to try to experiment with lighting up shadows on strange surface textures/colors to see what kind of things happen with all those beautiful colors the film is capable of producing while also rendering in a compressed/tight contrast ratio, leaving only certain things "black" black.  This seems like a true artists stock.  Is that agfachrome 200D similar??? In terms of blacks and that?

 

For the Pentax lens....thanks for that tip.  I'll probably take the plunge.  Although, my zoom really did please me.  If the Peleng 8mm is not too blurry...compared to this zoom....maybe I'd be better off widening my lens with that to give me a better pallete. 

 

The underexposure in this footage is something....that I think I just realized....I probably absent-mindedly opened it up for the Tiffen RED 25 filter only 2 STOPS....and since it was being stacked on top of the ND 0.9, I needed to open it 5 STOPS!!!  It's all I can think of....because if I suddenly added that red 25 filter on top of the ND AND opened it the full 5 stops.....wow.....that red 25 must have a really unrealistic filter factor.  So I am thinking it's just me who screwed it up.  I did it!  I'll take the credit.

 

By the way, many thanks for the comment, criticism and information.  I do appreciate that.  PS, your footage again looks great.  Colors are INTENSE with that 100D.  Like I said, I'd love to use that stock (or similar stock) artistically.  Did you do color correction to that at all?  Or was it a flat scan of the film?


  • 0

#4 Matthew B Clark

Matthew B Clark
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 189 posts
  • Other
  • Chicago, IL

Posted 20 December 2013 - 11:55 AM

By the way, are you implying that you are interested in selling your Peleng 8mm lens (due to disuse)??? 


  • 0

#5 Nicholas Kovats

Nicholas Kovats
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 507 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Shoot film! facebook.com/UltraPan8WidescreenFilm

Posted 20 December 2013 - 12:13 PM

Sorry, no implication. The 8mm is waiting patiently to be used for future filmic experiments. :)

 

By the way, are you implying that you are interested in selling your Peleng 8mm lens (due to disuse)??? 


  • 0

#6 Nicholas Kovats

Nicholas Kovats
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 507 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Shoot film! facebook.com/UltraPan8WidescreenFilm

Posted 20 December 2013 - 12:34 PM

Most likely. 

 

Thanks. Regrettably, Kodak discontinued 100D last year. You may still purchase remaining 100D stock in Super 8, Regular 8  or  Double Super 8 from Wittner at a hefty premium, i.e. 

 

http://www.wittner-k...mm/d8_filmm.php

 

The Agfachrome 200D is apparently grainier and is polyester based as opposed to acetate. If your transport goes belly up for some reason the polyester base  will not snap  and it will wreak havoc.  I could not find an example of it's potential "inky" blackness but the internet offered the following 16mm test for your compressed video analysis. The god of jet black inky blackness was Kodachrome 40 IMHO. 

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=Iw2SEtFLyzA

 

One of my best investments over 25+ years agao was an external "digital" one degree spotmeter. It has been my absolute exposure reference for a very long time. It would be a very simple matter to hold your stacked ND filters in front of a spot meter to quickly calculate the required exposure compensation. In fact the film of mine that you just watched utilized a variable neutral density filter that allowed me to shoot at the classic optimal aperture of F5.6 during my approximate 6 hour daylight shooting widow. 

 

No color correction on my part. John Gledhill (bitworks,org) is a color reversal transfer specialist. Check out his scan of Tony Shapps' 31 year old Pan-16 footage using 16mm Kodachrome II (25 asa), i.e. https://vimeo.com/81976714 (cropped) and https://vimeo.com/81960081 (overscan).

 

I look forward to your next film test,


Edited by Nicholas Kovats, 20 December 2013 - 12:36 PM.

  • 0

#7 Mark Dunn

Mark Dunn
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2424 posts
  • Other
  • London

Posted 20 December 2013 - 02:01 PM

There's not much fluctuating exposure due to speed variation that I can see. The breathing is due to the pressure plate not holding the film firmly enough in the gate.

On inspection I notice that it's not that firm in my K-3. I wonder if the spring in the button which bears on the back of the gate is rather weak.

The gate is also rather dirty which may not help.


Edited by Mark Dunn, 20 December 2013 - 02:03 PM.

  • 0

#8 Matthew B Clark

Matthew B Clark
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 189 posts
  • Other
  • Chicago, IL

Posted 20 December 2013 - 02:15 PM

Thank you Nicholas and Mark.  Also, sorry I originally placed this in the 16mm forums.  Correction graciously accepted and noted.

 

Mark, the pressure plate is secure, but yeah, it's not exactly being bludgeoned against the gate either by that plastic knob/spring, you're right.  I'll have to dig into that idea and do some more tests.

 

Which brings us back to reversal testing Nicholas!  Ok, so I picked up some 20 year old (freezer stored) Kodak Ektachrome 7240.  So I'll check the stability again when I shoot a test roll of that now.   I'll be very curious to see how that turns out.  I'm going to have to conduct a wide variety of bracketing type tests on that stock due to age, and also because I need to see how the E6 processing affects it as it is an old VNF stock.  I never used VNF process before, and therefore, never will, since its no longer with us...but I will have to figure out now how the various VNF stocks play nice (or not so nice) in E6 chemicals. 


  • 0

#9 Matthew B Clark

Matthew B Clark
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 189 posts
  • Other
  • Chicago, IL

Posted 20 December 2013 - 02:17 PM

Mark, I took a Q-tip to the gate last night (dry) and pressed it firmly around the border of the gate....potentially jabbing that little frosted silver plane inside the gate (the metal at 45 degree angle downward just inside the gate).  Is this an "optically sensitive" area?!!  I did it carefully, but I know the Q-tip did touch that metal bit. 


  • 0

#10 Nicholas Kovats

Nicholas Kovats
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 507 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Shoot film! facebook.com/UltraPan8WidescreenFilm

Posted 20 December 2013 - 02:58 PM

Mathew,
 
I am not speaking from experience but it was my impression that the VNF Ektachrome stocks were much grainier than the more modern E100D formulation. I always found my Super 8 Kodak Ektachrome SM 7244 (160 asa) from the 80's  suboptimal. I also use to shoot a variant called Ektachrome 160 Type G in Super 8 which was bit "bluer" but was not very satisfactory. 
 
E100D was the last formulation and they nailed it from the perspective of camera original color reversal stock...K40 or K25 not withstanding. E100D is quite stunning when projecting camera original. There is always a "gasp" from someone in the audience. :)  I have since "graduated" to the awesome latitude of color negative. The current Kodak V3 formulations are stupendous. 
 
Good luck!

  • 0


Paralinx LLC

Ritter Battery

rebotnix Technologies

Tai Audio

Metropolis Post

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Glidecam

Opal

Rig Wheels Passport

Abel Cine

Aerial Filmworks

CineTape

CineLab

Technodolly

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Wooden Camera

FJS International, LLC

Visual Products

Willys Widgets

The Slider

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Willys Widgets

Rig Wheels Passport

Wooden Camera

The Slider

Aerial Filmworks

Abel Cine

Paralinx LLC

Opal

FJS International, LLC

Tai Audio

rebotnix Technologies

Visual Products

Glidecam

CineTape

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Metropolis Post

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Ritter Battery

Broadcast Solutions Inc

CineLab

Technodolly