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No more Kodak Black Leader for negative cutting


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#1 Steve Farman UK Neg Cutter

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 05:35 PM

Please see the shock e-mail I received from Kodak UK

 

Hi Steve

we have the following available

33 rolls (33,000 ft) of the 16mm black leader - CAT 8905630 - @ £** ea  
20 rolls (20,000 ft) of the 35mm black leader - CAT 8545865 - @ £*** ea

Steve, as I will need to bring this in as a 'special order' from the US I will need a firm order on the qty's you wish to take on delivery to the UK...please let me know as soon as possible as the product is running out pretty quickly.

 

This was the complete stock available from Kodak US, I have already brought the 6000ft of 16mm Black that Kodak Europe had in stock.

 

This is now all in the UK and on its way to me, which to the best of my knowledge is all of the rest of the worldwide stock of black leader.

 

This is a big investment for future work as I cut about 10,000 feet last year, so it will not last for long.

 

So much for the promise made in June 2013 that Kodak had plenty of stock that would last for years, the black leader ran out after 10 months.

 

http://www.motion.ko...PCN030214_Q.pdf

 

If I can help please let me know.

 

Steve Farman

Tonbridge

Kent UK.


Edited by Steve Farman UK Neg Cutter, 14 April 2014 - 05:38 PM.

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#2 Robert Houllahan

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 07:39 PM

Uhh that sucks, maybe there is someone else who could supply it? Let me ask around to some of our suppliers here.


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#3 Dirk DeJonghe

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 11:39 PM

The Kodak black leader is carbon black, no emulsion. You can get Orwo black leader, processed or unprocessed. This is classic B&W film with emulsion that could get damaged.


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#4 Simon Wyss

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 01:48 AM

Try the French: http://www.mkfilms.fr/produits.html


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#5 Bill DiPietra

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 09:58 AM

Please see the shock e-mail I received from Kodak UK

 

Hi Steve

we have the following available

33 rolls (33,000 ft) of the 16mm black leader - CAT 8905630 - @ £** ea  
20 rolls (20,000 ft) of the 35mm black leader - CAT 8545865 - @ £*** ea

Steve, as I will need to bring this in as a 'special order' from the US I will need a firm order on the qty's you wish to take on delivery to the UK...please let me know as soon as possible as the product is running out pretty quickly.

 

This was the complete stock available from Kodak US, I have already brought the 6000ft of 16mm Black that Kodak Europe had in stock.

 

This is now all in the UK and on its way to me, which to the best of my knowledge is all of the rest of the worldwide stock of black leader.

 

This is a big investment for future work as I cut about 10,000 feet last year, so it will not last for long.

 

So much for the promise made in June 2013 that Kodak had plenty of stock that would last for years, the black leader ran out after 10 months.

 

http://www.motion.ko...PCN030214_Q.pdf

 

If I can help please let me know.

 

Steve Farman

Tonbridge

Kent UK.

 

Terrific.  Just terrific.


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#6 Alan Duckworth

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 12:41 PM

Sadly it is quite true - here is the latest Kodak catalog giving the grim details:

 

http://motion.kodak....ation/index.htm

 

Some good news. The Film Advocacy Task Force of the Association of Moving Image Archivists is setting up a co-op for the bulk ordering of film products. It appears that Kodak is willing to manufacture product to order, but the order has to meet minimum requirements - hence the concept of the co-op.  The person to contact for this is the Chair of the Task Force, Elena Rossi-Snook. With her permission I am posting her email - elenarossisnook@nypl.org

 

Alan Duckworth


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#7 Bill DiPietra

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 12:43 PM

Sadly it is quite true - here is the latest Kodak catalog giving the grim details:

 

http://motion.kodak....ation/index.htm

 

Some good news. The Film Advocacy Task Force of the Association of Moving Image Archivists is setting up a co-op for the bulk ordering of film products. It appears that Kodak is willing to manufacture product to order, but the order has to meet minimum requirements - hence the concept of the co-op.  The person to contact for this is the Chair of the Task Force, Elena Rossi-Snook. With her permission I am posting her email - elenarossisnook@nypl.org

 

Alan Duckworth

 

Thanks, Alan.  Is there a website for the co-op? 


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#8 Alan Duckworth

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 12:49 PM

 

Thanks, Alan.  Is there a website for the co-op? 

 

Not yet. Please contact Elena directly at this time. The Task Force has an interesting website of its own, well worth perusing. The Resources section is quite valuable.

 

http://www.filmadvocacy.org/


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#9 Bill DiPietra

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 12:52 PM

 

Not yet. Please contact Elena directly at this time. The Task Force has an interesting website of its own, well worth perusing. The Resources section is quite valuable.

 

http://www.filmadvocacy.org/

 

Excellent!  Thanks again.


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#10 Steve Farman UK Neg Cutter

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 04:13 AM

Thanks for the replies, No it is not a problem to get black leader made from Orwo sound stock, but at what cost and quality.

 

Kodak black was always pin hole free, will that be the case with processed black then there is the cost I have priced it at about 6 times more expensive.

 

Raising the cost of a 10 minute 16mm A & B neg cut from £400 to £700 and a 35mm A & B from £500 to £1000

 

I will contact Elena with my concerns thanks for the info.

 

There is also another group call Save Film. see www.savefilm.org which should be up and running tomorrow 17th April.

 

One of the founders of this group is Tacita Dean, who is a famous artist that works on Film, "FILM" ( which I neg cut) was in the Tate Modern Main turbine hall for 3 months in 2012

 

She is also on Radio tomorrow 17th of April at 11.30 or listen on iplayer

 

Leading British artist, Tacita Dean takes listeners with her on a mission to save a language. Not the kind that is spoken in a remote community, but an artistic one - photochemical film. She travels to UNESCO in Paris, to the Department of Intangible Cultural Heritage, to persuade the world's heritage keepers to act fast or lose what she considers the most important form of artistic expression of the 20th century


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#11 Steve Farman UK Neg Cutter

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 04:53 PM

As one door closes another one slams in your face !!

The Kodak black leader is carbon black, no emulsion. You can get Orwo black leader, processed or unprocessed. This is classic B&W film with emulsion that could get damaged.

Please see below an e-mail i have recievied from Orwo, so even if paying double the price by the time its processed to black, there is only very limited stocks of this product.

 

Thank you very much for your e-mail and the phone talk this morning.

With regard to black leader I have to inform, our black leader is an emulsion coated leader with acetate base. After exposing and developing it has a density of 5 or higher.

Unfortunately, we have stopped the production, caused through very low demand.

But there are still any rolls in stock (approx.. 30 of each kind), but only unexposed/undeveloped. That means you have to do that in a lab.

We could give to do that to a German copy lab, but it would increase the price.

 

ORWO black leader LF2/LF20  35mm/610m                         246.59 EUR/roll   

ORWO black leader LF2/LF20  35mm/305m                         123,30 EUR/roll   

ORWO black leader LF2/LF20  16mm/610m                         176.14 EUR/roll   

ORWO black leader LF2/LF20  16mm/305m                           88.07 EUR/roll               

 

I presume the carbon black was made in the now closed Kodak Acetate Factory and no one else can make it. I don't think there will ever be an order big enough for it to be remade either even if "The Film Advocacy Task Force of the Association of Moving Image Archivists" or " UNESCO" gets involved.


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#12 Dirk DeJonghe

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 01:52 AM

Steve,

 

You only need about a foot of real black leader per shot, we can zero-close the printer between takes so no light strikes the not-so-black leader between the shots.


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#13 Doug Palmer

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 03:40 AM

Steve,

 

You only need about a foot of real black leader per shot, we can zero-close the printer between takes so no light strikes the not-so-black leader between the shots.

This surely is an extra headache. I can't believe the demand for true black leader is that tiny worldwide.  I need some myself :o Anyone else ? It's a bit like film cement which seems to be going also extinct  These things it seems we hardly notice till it's too late.


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#14 Steve Farman UK Neg Cutter

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 05:30 PM

Hi Dirk

 

Yes its true, we used to do this when I had a branch at Technicolor London, they zero closed the printers and we used reprocessed NG prints ( to almost black out the image) to make up the length then cut back to black 3 feet before the shot change.

 

But that was because Technicolor had a big stock of acetate NG prints ( not because they were a bad company just faults in the stock) sorry had to say that, legal stuff. !!

 

Now  there's no prints are on acetate so what do I use to space out between the good black after and before shot changes, Polyester print stock will need tape splicing in, cant do that I have professional pride, you know.

 

Anything I use needs to be of a know source, I cant have breaks in the gash stock when printing due to be very old or just rubbish stock.

 

I would not like assume responsibility for cutting in unknown stock into a cut neg, it could end up a disaster, for me and the client.

 

 

Buying new acetate stock would cost more than the Kodak black did.

 

But I have 36,000 feet of 16mm black in stock and 6,000 feet of 35mm black so will be OK for a while. 


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#15 Richard Tuohy

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 06:24 PM

I think the best remaining option would be to use 7363/5363 Hi-con. Yes it isn't the carbon black but it is acetate and it make an excellent black. It is also relatively cheap.
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#16 Dirk DeJonghe

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Posted 18 April 2014 - 01:08 AM

I think the best option would be to process Orwo 16mm positive stock to a good black. You can still get it on acetate but it will be long pitch (1R3000). If you use the one foot of official short pitch black before and after the shot, that would work.


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#17 Simon Wyss

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Posted 18 April 2014 - 04:31 AM

It's a bit like film cement which seems to be going also extinct

 

PARATAX  is a slow binding but non toxic film cement. Stinks of acetic acid, keeps up for years.

 

10 ml and 250 ml portions looking for a distributor in the U. S.


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#18 Alan Duckworth

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 02:55 PM

This website became active last week, the list of supporters makes interesting reading:

 

http://www.savefilm.org/supporters/


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#19 Steve Farman UK Neg Cutter

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 06:15 PM

http://www.savefilm.org/supporters/

 

Looks like someone is getting the big players involved let's hope it can save whats left.

 

Which is not much  :(

 

I think the best option would be to process Orwo 16mm positive stock to a good black. You can still get it on acetate but it will be long pitch (1R3000). If you use the one foot of official short pitch black before and after the shot, that would work. 

 

Sounds like it would work OK, but it will still cost about 3 times as much as Kodak black once processed etc, This is another cost increase that the clients will have to pick up.


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#20 Alan Duckworth

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 01:59 PM

Received this email this morning:

 

>

I've confirmed with Bob Mastronardi at Kodak that there has been enough
interest in the discontinued black leader for them to consider a second run.
So don't panic.

HOWEVER

This is a supply and demand market.  Kodak will supply whatever is demanded.
But don't be complacent about your stock needs, be proactive.  If you're
interested in any Kodak product, shoot me an e-mail off-list and I'll put
you in touch with the proper person or will group all requests together for
a specific stock so that a single order can be placed.

Elena Rossi-Snook
Chair, AMIA Film Advocacy Task Force

>

 

Her email address is posted with her permission: elenarossisnook@nypl.org


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