Jump to content


Photo

DS8 stock


  • Please log in to reply
16 replies to this topic

#1 Jean-Louis Seguin

Jean-Louis Seguin
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 719 posts
  • Other
  • Montreal, Canada

Posted 20 June 2014 - 11:14 AM

Dear Forum members,

 

For your information, I have very recently made inquiries with Kodak Canada and Kodak USA about the issue of a special order of DS8. The stock chosen for discussion was Vision3 50D color negative. While no specific quantities were discussed, a starting price of $25,000 USD has been mentioned for such an order. Based on current Kodak pricing structure, I estimate that this is the conservative equivalent of approximately 40000 feet of DS8 stock or 400 100 ft. rolls of DS8 on daylight spool. Can all the world’s users of DS8 consume this amount of stock in the next two to three years?

 

The final price you may ask? Estimate from $70 to $80 for 100 ft. spools of DS8. Since there are no DS8 color stocks on the market at this time except Kahl Germany’s  offerings to compare prices with, we can compare with the price of four 50 foot cartridges of 50D. Kodak’s catalog price is currently $23.60. You can do the math.

 

Also, further efforts can be made to convince Kodak to agree to a lower minimum quantity for an order or perhaps to split the order into various negative stocks.

 

One last advantage about DS8 stock is that, if need be, at any time you can have the film slit and produce regular super8 stock for loading in standard refillable cartridges.

 

If Kodak would deliver DS8 stock, it will be of perfect (e.g. Kodak level) quality for sure.

 

I would appreciate hearing from anyone who would like to use the DS8 negative stocks and perhaps give me an idea of their potential usage. Thank you!

 

Jean-Louis Seguin


  • 0

#2 andy oliver

andy oliver
  • Sustaining Members
  • 258 posts
  • Other
  • uk

Posted 21 June 2014 - 09:43 AM

Hi,

I would be interested in at least 30x100ft loads, or film suppied on 400ft cores. In the past i have exposed various re-perfed film stocks for the DS8 format all of which had transportation issues. Only kodak perfed/produced film has passed through my camera perfectly (k25,k40 and 100d). So i would welcome the chance to purchased a kodak manufactured film stock. Lets hope there is enough interest from us DS8 users, whilst i prefer e6, this could be our last chance for a quality colour film stock for our cameras.


  • 0

#3 Jean-Louis Seguin

Jean-Louis Seguin
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 719 posts
  • Other
  • Montreal, Canada

Posted 21 June 2014 - 10:07 AM

That's great Andy! I don't have to sell you on how great 50D would look in DS8.

 

More fuel to go to Kodak with!

 

JL


  • 0

#4 Jose luis villar

Jose luis villar
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 136 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • SPAIN

Posted 21 June 2014 - 10:39 AM

Ds8 is a good format, the problem is that there are very few cameras.


  • 0

#5 Jean-Louis Seguin

Jean-Louis Seguin
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 719 posts
  • Other
  • Montreal, Canada

Posted 21 June 2014 - 12:20 PM

I have a few Bolexes and a few Pathés than need some work. Contact me if interested.

There always seems to be some Canon DS8 on eBay at one time or another. And this is not including the 25 footer Russian and Czech cameras.

 

JL


  • 0

#6 Jose luis villar

Jose luis villar
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 136 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • SPAIN

Posted 21 June 2014 - 01:21 PM

 Thanks Jean Louis, I will consider whether there ds8 stock in the future.


  • 0

#7 Friedemann Wachsmuth

Friedemann Wachsmuth
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 122 posts
  • Other
  • Hamburg, Germany

Posted 23 June 2014 - 09:26 AM

Count me in too, Jean-Louis!
 

On a separate note, actually regarding the exact quality opposit of the 50D:

 

Wittner intends to do prep the Aviphot Chrome 200D as 100ft loads in DS8 later this year (probably fall). Pricing will be close to the Double-8 option, so around €60/100ft spool. If you have general interest in such DS8 color reversal stock, please drop a brief email to <service@wittner-kinotechnik.de> and tell them. (This is neither a pre-order nor binding, just to gather market interest in general).
 
It is grainy and not the most staurated, but it is color reversal and has a unique look that fits well into retro expectations. 
 
Cheers!

  • 0

#8 andy oliver

andy oliver
  • Sustaining Members
  • 258 posts
  • Other
  • uk

Posted 23 June 2014 - 11:19 AM

will the 200D perforations be of the same QC as kodaks?, DS8 fuji velvia purchased said supplier was jittery through my H8. Also how good is 200D longevity, my agfa 40 and 160 super 8 from the 1980s is a mess of emulsion fungus. Can 200d be trusted to last 20 years without rotting!!


  • 0

#9 Martin Baumgarten

Martin Baumgarten
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 187 posts
  • Industry Rep
  • Plattsburgh, New York U.S.A.

Posted 23 June 2014 - 11:37 AM

I also have noticed the decay of color and emulsion problems on various filmstocks as they aged past 25 years.  The exceptions were all those I processed myself, having given them longer times in the Color Stabilizer Bath (Final Rinse E-6 type chemistry) than what any machine processing did in those eras of AGFAMoviChrome and Ektachrome filmstocks.   I will look forward to comparing this Agfa 200D longevity in the future.  I for one, personally prefer reversal films, since I like to see film projected; however I do see the use for negative filmstocks, even though I rarely use them.


  • 1

#10 Friedemann Wachsmuth

Friedemann Wachsmuth
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 122 posts
  • Other
  • Hamburg, Germany

Posted 25 June 2014 - 04:06 PM

The Perofration of Wittner's 200D should be of highest precision. He is crazy for precision and invested a lot in making PET-stock perforatable in perfect quality (PET is MUCH harder than Acetate).

Early DS8 Fuji stock was indeed perforated on machines that were not in good shape AND not maintained. I know for sure that these machines are now longer in service.

 

So yes, you can expect perforation at least as good as Kodak's on WIttner's stocks. 

 

Not sure about color stability, but E6 is way better in this than AP-41 and EM26 et al were. The 200D is quite grainy though.


  • 1

#11 Andries Molenaar

Andries Molenaar
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 671 posts
  • Industry Rep
  • Amsterdam

Posted 26 June 2014 - 02:51 AM

The Perofration of Wittner's 200D should be of highest precision. He is crazy for precision and invested a lot in making PET-stock perforatable in perfect quality (PET is MUCH harder than Acetate).

Early DS8 Fuji stock was indeed perforated on machines that were not in good shape AND not maintained. I know for sure that these machines are now longer in service.

 

So yes, you can expect perforation at least as good as Kodak's on WIttner's stocks. 

 

Not sure about color stability, but E6 is way better in this than AP-41 and EM26 et al were. The 200D is quite grainy though.

 

Considering your enthousiast review on Filmkorn of the new ADOX in Super-8 it would nice to hear if they (fotoimpex/adox?) will confection 16mm, R8 and DS8 :)

 

 

Jitter in camera is caused when the film is moved after the claw pushes it into position. As it happens too often on S8-cameras with too strong  pick-up torque The claw fits with plenty room in the perforation, it advances the film by pushing the leading edge of the perforation and leaves it at a fixed point. It doesn't matter if the hole is exact or not. The essence of the design and specification is that there is play.  With R8, 16mm or DS8 there is a loop keeping system which may be off a bit due to age which possibly is also influenced by the smooth winding of film. Which then leads to the misassumption that the perfs of some are causing this.

 

One problem would of course be if the perfs used for projection are not the same as the ones used for exposure when ther would be deviations in the interval. Some projectors use 3 frames off while cameras are one off.


  • 1

#12 Friedemann Wachsmuth

Friedemann Wachsmuth
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 122 posts
  • Other
  • Hamburg, Germany

Posted 26 June 2014 - 03:09 AM

I am not aware of current plans regarding R8, DS8 or 16mm from Adox, but I think they have the capabilities. Best would be if you express your interest to them directly. Backing interest with a S8 order certainley helps, but isn't manadtory. :)

 

I asked for DS8 confections myself.

 

Regarding per offset: Super 8 cameras are +2, no? Many DS8 cameras do not use +2. This should not be a problem though with Adox perforation since they guide the puncher with the holes they punched before. 


  • 0

#13 Andries Molenaar

Andries Molenaar
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 671 posts
  • Industry Rep
  • Amsterdam

Posted 26 June 2014 - 03:18 AM

Regarding per offset: Super 8 cameras are +2, no? Many DS8 cameras do not use +2. This should not be a problem though with Adox perforation since they guide the puncher with the holes they punched before. 

 

I always thought the big guys perforate film using large wheel mechanism where one wheel guides the film and has the die built in. Another wheel has the punches and interlocks. Interval is then insured by the punching wheel.

It seems even the biggest now use BUKO style perforators which have up and down travelling punches with the guides a few perfs ahead.

 

Kodak can supply the DS8 batch without a modifcation to their perforation process. It is just handling the pancakes and confections the DS8 spools.  :(   So Kodak, come on with these supplies!  We'll settle for a SO typenumber of film. No fancy cans or labels needed!


Edited by Andries Molenaar, 26 June 2014 - 03:20 AM.

  • 1

#14 Friedemann Wachsmuth

Friedemann Wachsmuth
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 122 posts
  • Other
  • Hamburg, Germany

Posted 26 June 2014 - 03:29 AM

Large-wheel perofrators are way too unprecise for S8 perofration. They are used for 35mm photo films, where registration does not matter at all, but are way too unprecise for small format motion picture film. If you think about it: No matter how big the wheels are (and the bigger, the more expensive the tool), the angle a puncher has when entering and leaving the hole and the matrix together with the puncher's length is a problem.

 

A proof that Kodak uses "stamp punchers" can be seen here -- note the "sawtooth" pattern repeating every five holes: 

 

 

I am sure Kodak has 1-3-5-7 and 1-4-5-8 perforators (if they use 32mm strands. The probably mostly use the 1-3-5-7 one when confectioning S8 stock, since 1-4-5-8 requires rewinding two of the strands. Rewinding is not a complex effort but it costs time, labor and introduces avoidable risk to the stock (scratches etc.).

 

I agree though that they should make some DS8 stock with a less crazy minimal ordering volume. :)


Edited by Friedemann Wachsmuth, 26 June 2014 - 03:32 AM.

  • 0

#15 Mark Dunn

Mark Dunn
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2427 posts
  • Other
  • London

Posted 26 June 2014 - 04:19 AM

IIRC the minimum order is based on manufacture of an entire wide roll of the same emulsion.

The master roll is 6000ft x 4.5ft which equates to about 100,000 linear feet of Super-8. That seems to be what has been offered. They can't, or won't, offer a smaller amount.


  • 0

#16 Andries Molenaar

Andries Molenaar
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 671 posts
  • Industry Rep
  • Amsterdam

Posted 26 June 2014 - 06:03 AM

IIRC the minimum order is based on manufacture of an entire wide roll of the same emulsion.

The master roll is 6000ft x 4.5ft which equates to about 100,000 linear feet of Super-8. That seems to be what has been offered. They can't, or won't, offer a smaller amount.

Has told before DS8 long rolls are a standard intermediate form in the S8 production. It merely suffices to roll a number of these long rolls onto 100ft spools.  Every S8 batch could supply a few of these long rolls. It is just being stubborn.


Edited by Andries Molenaar, 26 June 2014 - 06:05 AM.

  • 0

#17 Friedemann Wachsmuth

Friedemann Wachsmuth
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 122 posts
  • Other
  • Hamburg, Germany

Posted 27 June 2014 - 03:42 AM

In the meantime, you might want to drop Wittner a line about their latest plan re DS8. Better than nothing!

 

Wittner Chrome 200D in DS8?

http://www.filmkorn....me-200d-in-ds8/


  • 0


Technodolly

Wooden Camera

Visual Products

Aerial Filmworks

Metropolis Post

Glidecam

CineLab

The Slider

Opal

FJS International, LLC

Tai Audio

rebotnix Technologies

Willys Widgets

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Broadcast Solutions Inc

CineTape

Ritter Battery

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Paralinx LLC

Abel Cine

Rig Wheels Passport

CineTape

The Slider

Ritter Battery

Aerial Filmworks

Paralinx LLC

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Visual Products

Wooden Camera

Opal

FJS International, LLC

Tai Audio

CineLab

Glidecam

Metropolis Post

Willys Widgets

Rig Wheels Passport

Abel Cine

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Technodolly

rebotnix Technologies

Gamma Ray Digital Inc