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Kino Celeb vs. TruColor HS


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#1 Rob McGreevy

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 10:18 PM

What can anybody tell me about the TruColor HS in comparison to the Kino Celeb? I'm gaffing a feature and my DP really likes the Celeb. I've worked with it before as well and I'm a fan, but unfortunately the rental house we're going through can't provide it. They're offering the TruColor as a replacement which neither of us has ever worked with,and in an effort to appease my DP and make sure we're getting the right thing I would love to hear some feedback as far as output, color accuracy, light quality etc. is concern in comparison.

Thanks.


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#2 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 04:21 AM

I have no knowledge of the Cineo device specifically, but with any current LED, you need to be careful about colour accuracy. The fact that it's a remote phosphor unit may help but isn't the panacea it's often advertised to be. Also, I would personally prefer that all LED lighting manufacturers stated performance in terms of TLCI and not (or at least as well as) CRI, as CRI sometimes doesn't characterise LEDs very well.

 

Careful searching reveals that Cineo have actually done this and achieved good results, although I had to run a google search across their site to find the info!

 

P


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#3 Rob McGreevy

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 11:45 PM

yeah...I've checked out their specs page and it seems pretty good...output actually exceeds that of the Celeb and I like that it's lighter weight too. I feel comfortable that it will do that job, was just wondering if anybody who's seen it in action had anything to say about it.
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#4 Adam Frisch FSF

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 09:13 AM

Can't change colour temp without switching out the phosphor for one. But they are bright and give a nice even light.


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#5 Rob McGreevy

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 12:32 AM

Can't change colour temp without switching out the phosphor for one. But they are bright and give a nice even light.

Hmmm...that's a bummer...how involved is that process?


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#6 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 10:32 AM

Not very. Slide out one plastic panel, slide in another. Just store them properly - some manufacturers' panels have the phosphor coating (which is usually suspended in a rubbery silicone) on one side of the plastic unprotected, and it can be easy to damage.


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#7 Rob McGreevy

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Posted 28 June 2014 - 10:00 PM

Well, it became something of a moot point anyway...I was under the impression the rental house was providing the TruColor HS which is roughly Kino Celeb-sized, but what they actually had was the LS which is LitePanel-sized...we already had Lite Panels, so we dropped the TruColor to open up budget space for other stuff. Still though, kind of a cool fixture...I don't know that the LS is worth the hassle for that size of a fixture, but some of their bigger stuff is intriguing - particularly their version of a spacelight looks cool, I'd really like to see what that thing's like on set.
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#8 Guy Holt

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Posted 29 June 2014 - 10:26 AM

... what they actually had was the LS which is LitePanel-sized....I don't know that the LS is worth the hassle for that size of a fixture,....

 

I have no first hand experience working with the Cineo Remote Phosphor LED fixtures outside of playing around with them at tradeshows, but I gather from forum posts that they (LS & HS) sometimes just cut out. Apparently for safety there is a switch in the panel slot so that the LEDs cut out automatically if the phosphor panel is removed. Apparently, in some burning positions the phosphor panel doesn’t sit right and the switch cuts out.

 

Another problem with Remote Phosphor LED fixtures is that their output is inconsistent because it is dependent on maintaining a very specific wavelength output of their emitters (not easily accomplished with LEDs.) Trish Mass, with PRG (the fore-runner to Cineo), once wrote: “The specific wave-length of blue is paramount to fluorescing the rare earth elements (in the phosphor panels.) We have to hit it with a pretty specific nanometer. Without that blue, you just have one really dense yellow light blocker.”

 

However there are a number of factors that make the output of LED emitters inconsistent. For example they are affected not only by the imprecise binning practices and manufacturing tolerances of manufacturers, but also by the thermal management in the fixture, the ageing of the phosphors, and even the ambient temperature. For example, a one-degree shift in the junction temperature of the blue InGaN LED (pump color) in remote phosphor LEDs, will cause a +/- 2nm shift in the dominant wavelength. If compounded by the average wavelength variation of +/- 2nm of blue InGaN LEDs, a 5nm divergence from the prescribed 455nm wavelength of the pump color will create a color inconsistency of 5 MacAdams ellispses. While not readily apparent to the eye, image capture systems (both film & digital) will easily see this variation. For this reason the better multi-emitter designs, like the new Arri L7 LED Fresnels and the Gekko's Kleer Colour® technology incorporate a color-feedback system of self-monitoring sensors to ensure stable color across a range of output levels, as well as correcting changes in performance caused by ambient temperature and component aging, which ensures consistent color temperature.

 

You have to be wary of all the claims made by LED head manufacturers because they all put a little spin on the scientific data which has a tendency to cloud issues. For this reason, to pick the right LED luminary for a particular job it helps to have a thorough understanding of the technology.  For our company newsletter I have put together an overview of the technology and what products are available for motion picture lighting.

 

Guy Holt, Gaffer, ScreenLight & Grip, Lighting Rental and Sales in Boston.


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#9 David Landau

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 09:25 PM

I just finished a low budget feature using the Cineo LS lights and I can attest they are fantastic. They saved us many times. They have a very high CRI - I tested them - much higher than litepanels. They are lighter and brighter and softer than litepanels. The remote phosphor panels are simple and fast to change out. They are dimmable without shifts in color temperature. What they provide you can not get with any litepanel or any non- remote phosphor unit. The small size makes them easy to rig over head or hide around corners. I was shooting in tight locations in houses and an old funky bar. We couldn't have gotten the great looks we achieved with any other light. Low wattage, no heat. I've become a big fan. I haven't worked with the Celeb yet, but I know that almost everything Kinoflo makes is great - except the Diva - which we also had on the shoot, as well as 4x4 kinos. Love the 4x4 kinos. There are no problems with inconsistent emitters with Cineo. What you get with the Cineo LS with only 150watts is a 2k zip - soft, even, bright that wraps and looks great. The smaller LS only dims down about 2 stops, not all the way out like the HS. There were times we had to add ND gel over them. And once we used them in a bar scene without the diffuser panels (we did cover them with opal) to get a great blue color for a late Bar Light look. The director loved it.

 

David Landau, author new book "Lighting for Cinematography" from Bloomsbury Press.

www.lightingforcinematography.com


Edited by David Landau, 09 July 2014 - 09:27 PM.

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#10 Alex Fuerst

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 06:47 PM

The Cineo LS lights and I can attest they are fantastic. They saved us many times. They have a very high CRI - I tested them - much higher than litepanels. They are lighter and brighter and softer than litepanels. The remote phosphor panels are simple and fast to change out. They are dimmable without shifts in color temperature. What they provide you can not get with any litepanel or any non- remote phosphor unit.

 

Having used the Cineo LS and HS before, I agree with what David said. These Cineo fixtures completely blow LitePanels (and all other LED fixtures) away in output, CRI, build quality and light quality all while sharing the same benefits of LED fixtures (dimmable, low power consumption/batter power option, small form factor, low heat emission). The phosphor panels are much easier and faster to change than Kino lamps. The Cineo lights are super soft and natural and fantastic with skin tones. If I were to go out and buy a light kit today the majority of them will be Remote Phosphor lights.

 

Cineo has a CRI comparison of their products to many popular fixtures here: http://www.cineoligh...s/light_lab/103  I can confirm that this is an accurate portrayal and not a stilted promotional hype tool.

 

Cineo just announced at NAB 2014 a battery power version of their LS called the Maverick with slightly less output. Also, their Matchstix line of small 3", 6" & 12" strips that can squeeze nearly anywhere.

 

I've made an album of Remote Phosphor and Plasma lighting videos on Vimeo.com to share the news from the mouths of the manufacturers and reps here:  https://vimeo.com/album/2929456

 

The only makers I know of at this time are:

I've seen the BBS Area 48 in person but have yet to use one myself. They also look fantastic! Hope to get to use an Area 48 and some of Hive's fixtures soon.


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#11 Alex Fuerst

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 07:16 PM

Just found one more manufacturer: Photon Beard  http://www.photonbeard.com/

 

Their remote phosphor version of a standard redhead, the PhotonBeam 80, is claimed to be released at the end of July 2014. Glad to see another maker in the works.


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#12 Mark Kenfield

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 07:35 PM

I wonder if that Photon Beard 80w fixture will be focusable at all? I'm not really sure if it can be given the nature of remote phosphor, but it sure would be handy.
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#13 Alex Fuerst

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 08:36 PM

I wonder if that Photon Beard 80w fixture will be focusable at all? I'm not really sure if it can be given the nature of remote phosphor, but it sure would be handy.

 

The Photon Beard is a Redhead derivative. So it is open faced and can be modified via barn doors and the like. It is not a fresnel type fixture.

 

Cineo has the Foton2 which uses the remote phosphor technology and has interchangeable bayonet-style reflector barrels. That's the closest remote phosphor fixture to having focusable light.


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#14 Mark Kenfield

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 10:50 PM

Well every redhead I've ever used has had the ability to focus between flood and spot settings, it's not only fresnels that offer that capability. It'd be a little confusing if Photon Beard's offering takes the form factor of a redhead (over a plain open-faced floodlight) but then doesn't offer an capacity to modify the beam angle.

 

The Foton's interchangeable reflectors seem like the only real way to change the beam spread of a non-point source light like remote phosphor, so I wonder if the Photon Beard offers something similar?


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#15 Rob McGreevy

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 11:29 PM

Thanks for all the reviews on the trucolor, that's very good info to know...still for me I think the main drawback would be it's overall size and weight. I know that in theory it's about the same size as a litepanel, but at least the one I looked at came in a big-ass, heavy case for just one, whereas a double litepanel case can easily be carried around one handed by the smallest person on my crew. Also, the added complexity of it was a bit of a turn off for me as well - I know litepanels aren't necessarily the highest output, most color-accurate fixtures, but they're great in a pinch. I always like to have a bi-color one standing by on a premie stand with a chimera and battery on it, to be flown in on a moment's notice as a general all-purpose rescue light when the cameras are about to roll and you just need something...I don't think I could get that from the trucolor, with the ballast and everything that comes with it it's just too cumbersome to serve that purpose. But it's good to know what other people think about using them, I could totally see myself using some of their bigger fixtures for other purposes someday. Also the matchstix could have saved my ass a few times on this shoot I'm doing right now...can anybody tell me if they can be battery powered? Do they have on-board ballasts? If the answer to both of those questions is yes than they are a dream fixture that I would want on every shoot.
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#16 David Landau

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 10:43 AM

The matchstixs can be battery operated and there is a small inline dimmer that can be used with them as well. I have not used them yet, just saw them at the NAB. I really enjoy using the Rosco litepads for small tight places and in cars. These work with a battery pack ( 8 aa batteries) and have an in-line dimmer attachable. they are very light weight and flat and can be hidden almost anywhere.

 

The TurColor LS is half the size of the HS. It is smaller than a litepanel - about 2/3rds the size. It is also lighter - as I have rigged both on grip stands and the LS is much easier and lighter to rig. We flew one over a kicthen stove as a down light and it spread nice and didn't need diffusion. We ran it low on the dimmer too. We all like to work with what we know best, because we know what we can expect out of it.

 

We use Litepanels on Project Runway all the time as the eyelight/soft fill, with an anton bauer battery on it. Although we now have a different brand which is exactly the same but a bite lighter in weight. Still, that is one heavy rig to handhold on a grip arm for an hour. Could we use the LS? No, because it has a ballast, so its not ideal for run and gun reality. But it should never be an either or thing. They both have their advantages and best uses. On the last feature I shot I had four ikan LED lights that were basically litepanels and two TruColor LS lights. I used the LS units all the time and we never used the other LEDs. That's just how it goes sometimes.

 

Shameless plug time. Check out my new book "lighting for cinematography" from Bloomsbury press, available on Amazon and at my website www.lightingforcinematography.com


Edited by David Landau, 12 July 2014 - 10:47 AM.

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#17 Rob McGreevy

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 07:05 PM

I've used the rosco pads too, I like them...when I used them the DP provided them as part of his personal kit, and he only had the basic package - so no dimmer and no battery option. So I was constantly having to adjust output by throwing various layers of black paper on it, and it was always a pain to find AC power for it. But they really worked great for a lot of what we did and I can definitely see myself using them a lot more with the battery/dimming options available.



The main drawback I found was at one point we needed one to be tungsten balanced, and when we CTO'd it it looked green. We put a little minus green on but that wound up looking even weirder. Any suggestions for that? Would CTS maybe look better? Or would you recommend not color correcting it at all and just using a totally different fixture for tungsten scenarios?

Edited by Rob McGreevy, 12 July 2014 - 07:08 PM.

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#18 Alex Fuerst

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 07:14 PM

I don't think I could get that from the trucolor, with the ballast and everything that comes with it it's just too cumbersome to serve that purpose.

 
Rob,
 
Look at their new (soon to be released) Maverick in this video starting at 3:28. It also shows the matchstix, Fotonand TruColor HS in action.

 

I'm not a fan of ballasts either. The Maverick does not have a ballast, only an Anton Bauer or V mount battery plate and dimmer knob. It has an output of a 1K (9000 lumens). No Litepanel or similar 1x1 LED boats that kind of output or soft light quality. Changing the phosphor panels to a different color temp would take less time than putting on a soft box and closer to time of adding a gel. (which you can gel these as well if need be)
 
When first I picked up a Litepanel 1x1 it felt like a toy and the output was underwhelming, especially for the price. The build quality of the Litepanels has always been a huge disappointment to me and where Cineo's lights feel super solid enough to last years.

 

I'd encourage you to rent a few and see what I'm talking about. I truly believe this remote phosphor technology has a huge leg up on LED fixtures.


Edited by Alex Fuerst, 12 July 2014 - 07:17 PM.

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#19 Rob McGreevy

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 07:33 PM

Thanks Alex, judging by the video you showed me the Maverick looks like a pretty viable litepanel replacement...I see you're up in Dallas, where are you getting the Cineo fixtures that you're using? Our lighting package on this movie is coming from MPS, they told us the only Trucolor fixture they had was the LS and it was shipped down from Dallas just for us (which kind of makes me feel bad since we didn't use it :/ ). Maybe what they meant was it was the only one available, I don't know...I've also noticed that the Austin guys don't always seem to be totally appraised of what's in the full inventory up in the Dallas office, so maybe they do have that stuff and the guys down here didn't know.
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#20 Alex Fuerst

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 07:50 PM

I've got mine from Bolt Productions (2 HSs and 2 LSs) and Electric Light & Power Co. has the older PRG versions which have much larger ballasts than the current Cineo ones (also at a higher rate if my memory serves me right). I've been putting the bug in the ear of some of the MPS and MLD Video guys to get some (especially the Mavericks and Matchstix).

 

MPS, I'm sure, has different gear scattered among their various branches and simply ship gear when needed elsewhere. As these Cineo lights are newer products and let's say only the Dallas branch gets them in stock they may want to see how well they rent before telling the other branches. Or they could just be selfish and don't want to share! Haha. Just a guess.  :)


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