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super 8 jiggle


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#1 Geoffrey Chandler

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 07:07 PM

Is this a normal amount of super 8 jiggle? The camera was never hand-held. Always on tripod support.

 

 

I ran across this on youtube and it seems to have much less jiggle. It was shot on a Canon.

 

 

chandlervideo.com

beaucinema.com

 

 


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#2 Jean-Louis Seguin

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 07:36 PM

Could be the transfer.
What method was used?

Jean-Louis
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#3 David Cunningham

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 09:12 PM

Although it could be the transfer, that actually looks pretty stable for tripod mounted super 8. Even the Beaulieu cameras sufferer the same jitter inherent in the format. There are very few pin registered super 8 cameras. Also the tolerances for the film itself are not that great. Kodak has had a recent batch of 50D with very odd perf patterns that could contribute to all this too.

All in all I think the footage looks great and about what I would expect for jitter. That's why I always stabilize my tripod footage in either motion, premiere pro or after effects.
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#4 Jean-Louis Seguin

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 10:02 PM

Do you have any additional information about that batch of 50D? I always thought that Kodak perfs were very accurate.

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#5 David Cunningham

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 10:24 PM

Jean-Louis, see the thread about the logmar camera. It details how the perfs wable back and forth every 5 perfs. It causes some crazy lateral movement in the Logmar camera.
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#6 David Cunningham

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 10:27 PM


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#7 Geoffrey Chandler

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 04:34 AM

There are very few pin registered super 8 cameras. Also the tolerances for the film itself are not that great. 

 

Do you know if the Canon 1014XL was one of those?

 

Here's the same test after stabilization in Sony Vegas:  


Edited by Geoffrey Chandler, 08 July 2014 - 04:38 AM.

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#8 Geoffrey Chandler

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 04:36 AM

Could be the transfer.
What method was used?

Jean-Louis

 

2K scan at Gamma Ray Digital in Boston. "...capstan-based transport and digital frame registration..."


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#9 David Cunningham

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 06:41 AM

 

2K scan at Gamma Ray Digital in Boston. "...capstan-based transport and digital frame registration..."

 

If it's Gamma Ray, then it's definitely not the scan.  That system is rock solid because of the registration it does with the perf.  The jitter you are seeing is actually on the negative.

 

None of the Canons have pin registration.  I am only aware of the new Logmar and the high speed Mekel series of cameras.  http://super8wiki.co...x.php/Mekel_300

 

Both of these require you to pull a few feet of film out of the cart and thread the loop through a proper film gate.

 

Honestly, your original footage looks pretty good for Super 8.  It's only obvious because it's a tripod mount, not hand-held as was intended in the original Super 8 design.  You're just not noticing it in other footage because hand-held hides it.  Has your Beaulieu been recently serviced?  If not, you might want to do that.  Negative film stocks are a bit heaver than the Kodachrome the cameras were designed for and require a bit more take-up-torque in the camera.  That can contribute to jitter.


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#10 David Cunningham

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 06:44 AM

Geoffrey,

 

How did you do your color correction/grade with your Gamma Ray footage?  I am not very good at it myself and looking for pointers.

 

Dave


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#11 Geoffrey Chandler

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 06:47 AM

Geoffrey,

 

How did you do your color correction/grade with your Gamma Ray footage?  I am not very good at it myself and looking for pointers.

 

Dave

I don't really know what I'm doing. I use Sony Vegas. I think I tried the free sample of the plug-in, New Blue "Color Fast" and that helped too. 


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#12 Zac Fettig

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 08:01 AM

That amount of jitter looks normal to me. Cameras don't get much better than the Beaulieu 4008 ZM2 you're using. Keep in mind that there is no registration pin or pressure plate (the bigger problem) on a Super 8 camera (Except the prototype-stage-Logmars and the very rare Mekels; or some DS8 cameras). Any super 8 camera with drop in loading does not have a registration pin. It can't. There is no pressure plate to hold the film against.

 

My guess would be the film stock. It looks like you're shooting Negative (with a remjet backing) and the other footage is (probably) Tri-X+Kodachrome (or Ektachrome) reversal. The reversal is thinner, and won't hop around as much.


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#13 Jose luis villar

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 09:01 AM

I may be many things, camera, film, scanner ... is only going to test and discard. My zm2 4008 and especially the 1014 canon, do much better image stability. I usually shoot hand but I've done tests with tripod and pressure plate and the image of the Canon is very stable, seems to 16mm.


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#14 Steve Zimmerman

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 12:55 PM

That's why I always stabilize my tripod footage in either motion, premiere pro or after effects.

The Warp Stabilizer effect in After Effects and Premiere Pro is excellent for film jitter and subtle weaving.  Set the effect strength at 1% and it will automatically remove all the jitter but leave all of the natural camera motion.  It can be weird on some closeups, so the AE manual motion tracker needs to me used for those shots.


Edited by Steve Zimmerman, 08 July 2014 - 12:59 PM.

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#15 Anthony Schilling

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 01:49 PM

Even on a tripod there can be a small amount of camera vibration, although very slight can be enough to have a noticeable effect on such a small frame. Also, one thing i see on this scan that i noticed on the Logmar sample is what appears to be a small amount of scatter? The images just appear to have a subtle soft glow. Maybe it just needs some more correction with contrast and levels?


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#16 David Cunningham

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 02:10 PM

Even on a tripod there can be a small amount of camera vibration, although very slight can be enough to have a noticeable effect on such a small frame. Also, one thing i see on this scan that i noticed on the Logmar sample is what appears to be a small amount of scatter? The images just appear to have a subtle soft glow. Maybe it just needs some more correction with contrast and levels?

 

Could you give a time at which you see this most in the footage?  I don't really notice it.


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#17 Bill Gaunce

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 02:47 PM

I may be many things, camera, film, scanner ... is only going to test and discard. My zm2 4008 and especially the 1014 canon, do much better image stability. I usually shoot hand but I've done tests with tripod and pressure plate and the image of the Canon is very stable, seems to 16mm.

Jose, Do you find that your 1014xl-s is more stable than the 814xl-s or are they about the same?  By the way, your Super 8mm is some of the best I've ever seen, it's very inspiring!


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#18 Anthony Schilling

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 07:53 PM

 

Could you give a time at which you see this most in the footage?  I don't really notice it.

How about most of it David. The images are a little too soft. A lot of it could have to do with the camera focus, or grain reduction, or the gamma is too high? I noticed it on the Logmar footage as well, although i think the camera focus was less of a culprit there. The edges are a little too diffuse and maybe some more density could help.


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#19 Zac Fettig

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 07:12 AM

Jose, Do you find that your 1014xl-s is more stable than the 814xl-s or are they about the same?  By the way, your Super 8mm is some of the best I've ever seen, it's very inspiring!

 

In theory they should be exactly the same. The only difference between to two is the lens.


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#20 Jose luis villar

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 08:04 AM

 

In theory they should be exactly the same. The only difference between to two is the lens.

 

Exactly.


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