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50, 100 & 200 ASA Super-8 Negative...


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#1 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 02 May 2005 - 08:24 PM

In the exact same lighting scenario...

If I shot 200 ASA Super-8 negative and overexposed one stop, versus 100 ASA Super-8 negative at proper exposure, would I notice a difference? Which would be grainer, might it be a tie?

If I shot 100 ASA overexposed one stop, vesus ASA 50 negative at proper exposure, would I notice a difference? Which would be grainer, might it be a tie?


If I shot 50 ASA underexposed by one stop versus 200 ASA overexposed by one stop Or 100 ASA at exact exposure, which would look the least grainy?
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#2 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 02 May 2005 - 08:33 PM

The slower film would be finer-grained (unless underexposed) than the faster film overexposed.

Overexposure does not make a film finer-grained; it has larger grains as a basic part of the design, which is what makes it a faster film.

So those big grains are ALWAYS there; they are the first things that get exposed. Overexposing makes sure that the slower, smaller grains inbetween the larger, faster grains are ALSO exposed; this "tightens" up the grain structure, filling in the gaps, making it seem less grainy.

Of course, perception is everything so if you think that 100 ASA film rated at 50 ASA looks as fine-grained as 50 ASA rated normally, then who is to say your perception is wrong... even if physically, the slower film has smaller grains overall.

IF this project is for printing, then the overexposed negative printed down will have deeper blacks and a more snappy contrast than the normally exposed negative; however, in the case of Vision-2 100T versus EXR 50D, the EXR 50D already is a fairly contrasty stock with deep blacks compared to Vision-2 100T, so perhaps overexposing 100T to 50 ASA would only make them match more closely.

EXR 50D, being daylight-balanced, also has a slower-speed blue layer so blue areas in the frame would be finer-grained than in 100T stock, like blue skies.
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#3 John Hyde

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Posted 02 May 2005 - 09:28 PM

However, I know for a fact that Vision film has one stop of finer grain than the older EXR stocks. So, the ASA rule may not hold true depending on the film.

And, Vision 2 film may be even better than the standard Vision, but this is unconfirmed.

In any case, if shooting 100 Vision 2 super 8 and EXR 50 super 8 side-by-side, grain should be similar. But, 100 ASA will have better latitude in case of minor exposure errors. Plus it could be used in a greater variety of shooting situations. This is why Kodak should release the 100 ASA Vision 2 in super 8 ASAP. It is really a better stock to shoot with - especially considering beginning filmmakers that start off shooting with super 8.
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#4 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 02 May 2005 - 09:41 PM

However, I know for a fact that Vision film has one stop of finer grain than the older EXR stocks.  So, the ASA rule may not hold true depending on the film.

And, Vision 2 film may be even better than the standard Vision, but this is unconfirmed.

In any case, if shooting 100 Vision 2 super 8 and EXR 50 super 8 side-by-side, grain should be similar.  But, 100 ASA will have better latitude in case of minor exposure errors.  Plus it could be used in a greater variety of shooting situations.  This is why Kodak should release the 100 ASA Vision 2 in super 8 ASAP.  It is really a better stock to shoot with - especially considering beginning filmmakers that start off shooting with super 8.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Actually the Kodak VISION2 100T (7212) and 200T (7217) Color Negative Films are very similar for granularity. The 7212 is sharper however. Both are improved over previous products in their speed classes.

Again, the business case for any additional films for Super-8 requires solid positive sales forecasts. Will new films actually mean substantial growth of the Super-8 market, or just divide up a constant market?
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#5 John Hyde

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Posted 02 May 2005 - 10:35 PM

Actually the Kodak VISION2 100T (7212) and 200T (7217) Color Negative Films are very similar for granularity.  The 7212 is sharper however.  Both are improved over  previous products in their speed classes.

Again, the business case for any additional films for Super-8 requires solid positive sales forecasts.  Will new films actually mean substantial growth of the Super-8 market, or just divide up a constant market?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


John,

Yes, I believe that it would make very good business sense for Kodak to introduce more super 8 films (or, at least the 100 ASA Vision2 and Ektachrome 100 daylight for E6 that they promised). Kodak needs to concentrate more on new customers and less on the small market bottom line if they are going to maintain or grow their 35 and 16 markets. They need to see super 8 as the crumbs to draw in their new film clients and less as a money maker. Once they adopt this idea they may be able draw in new clients - even in a digital market.

I honestly think a new approach is needed in a rather critical time for film.

I wrote a rather lengthy reply of sorts under the "Surveillance Super 8 Color Neg" topic.
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#6 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 02 May 2005 - 11:08 PM

Thanks for all the responses. I feel then that perhaps the topic could be more precise.

Given the identical location and lighting set-up....

Which will look like it has less grain, 200 ASA Super-8 overexposed one stop, or ASA 100 Super-8 negative at normal exposure?

And which will look less grainy, ASA 100 underexposed 1 stop, or ASA 200 at normal exposure?

Is 200 the be it all, end all option for Super-8 filmmakers thinking of making a feature, or would 100 ASA offer less grain?

All work would be edited in video, at the very least BetaCam SP quality.
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#7 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 02 May 2005 - 11:29 PM

Which will look like it has less grain, 200 ASA Super-8 overexposed one stop, or ASA 100 Super-8 negative at normal exposure?

And which will look less grainy, ASA 100 underexposed 1 stop, or ASA 200 at normal exposure?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


7212 (100T) is less grainy than 7217 (200T), so as long as you don't underexpose 100T, it should be less grainy than 200T, but as John said, they are closely matched so it is not a big difference.

EXR 50D is still the finest-grained film stock made, but Vision-2 100T is slightly sharper and almost as fine-grained, plus has a wider exposure latitude, but EXR 50D has richer colors.

In terms of underexposed 100T versus normally exposed 200T, the 200T would probably look finer-grained.

But you have to compare stocks in the same generation (Vision-2). If you are comparing EXR 100T (7248) to Vision-2 200T (7217), then you might find '17 to look as fine-grained as '48 but a stop faster. However, you may prefer the snappier, more saturated look of '48...

My general belief is that if you're trying to reduce graininess in color negative, then overexpose by 2/3's of a stop, but before I'd overexpose by 1 stop, I think it's better to just go to the next slower-speed stock made in the same series.
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#8 Anthony Schilling

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Posted 02 May 2005 - 11:29 PM

Kodak needs to concentrate more on new customers and less on the small market bottom line if they are going to maintain or grow their 35 and 16 markets.


I wouldn't be shooting 16mm if it wasn't for my start in Super 8. And I would not have started shooting color negetives if I hadn't started with reversal. Super 8 is the best way to cut your teeth at a low cost. I've witnessed a lot of discouragement at film school for those who went straight to 16mm, only to make simple mistakes that could have been ironed out for a lot cheaper with Super 8. In my case, I was able to hit the ground running when I got into 16mm. your less likely to crash a Harley if you learn how to ride a bicycle first.
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#9 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 03:05 AM

So Vision 2 does not exist for 100 ASA?
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#10 Anthony Schilling

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 03:15 AM

Only the 200T & 500T are available in color neg S-8 from Kodak.
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#11 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 05 May 2005 - 08:11 PM

7212 (100T) is less grainy than 7217 (200T), so as long as you don't underexpose 100T, it should be less grainy than 200T, but as John said, they are closely matched so it is not a big difference.

My general belief is that if you're trying to reduce graininess in color negative, then overexpose by 2/3's of a stop, but before I'd overexpose by 1 stop, I think it's better to just go to the next slower-speed stock made in the same series.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


So the question I have is how much of a grain difference are we talking about when it comes to super-8 filmstocks via a rank cintel transfer between 50 ASA, 100 ASA, 200 ASA negative stocks and Kodachome 40.

If I were to do a test, it would be difficult to do an outdoor test without any change in the lighting conditions as the cartridges are interchanged during the test.
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#12 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 05 May 2005 - 08:25 PM

So the question I have is how much of a grain difference are we talking about when it comes to super-8 filmstocks via a rank cintel transfer between 50 ASA, 100 ASA, 200 ASA negative stocks and Kodachome 40.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


IF EI 100T 7212 were available in Super-8, it would have similar granularity and be slightly sharper than the EI 200T 7217, which IS available. And it would be 1 stop slower. Slight overexposure of the 7217 will reduce the granularity even further.

It is difficult to compare the graininess of a reversal and a negative stock directly, as the contrasts are so different. But a negative film has more latitude, and more suitable for telecine transfer, and many more labs run process ECN-2 than K-14 for motion pictures.

There are no plans to finish EI 50D 7245 in the Super-8 format.
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#13 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 05 May 2005 - 11:54 PM

If Kodak knows how much Vision 200T and 500T is used in a year, couldn't Kodak piggyback a smaller run of either the 50T or 100T after a run of the other stocks is made into Super-8?

The idea being to see if the new negative stock actually cuts into the amount of the 200T or 500T being consumed. It's quite possible that a new stock could actually INCREASE all the stocks because now there is a full range of ASA stocks for dealing with all lighting situations.

Utlimately, when the film is being made for Super-8, I doubt that the film slitting machine or the loaders care if it's 200T or 100T, so doing an experimental run wouldn't really be a big deal, would it?
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#14 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 06 May 2005 - 07:07 AM

Utlimately, when the film is being made for Super-8, I doubt that the film slitting machine or the loaders care if it's 200T or 100T, so doing an experimental run wouldn't really be a big deal, would it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


As I said before, a 54-inch wide roll will yield tens of thousands of Super-8 Cartridges. If they don't all get sold within a year or so, they get discarded. That's a pretty big write-off for an "experimental run". Yes, 7212 is a bit sharper than 7217. But will adding it to the Super-8 line-up really make such a big difference that tens of thousands of ADDITIONAL cartridges are sold?
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#15 Alessandro Machi

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Posted 06 May 2005 - 09:35 AM

That info you cited was on another thread but someone else said on that same thread that the order could be as small as 5,000 cartridges.

But even if it's tens of thousands, the key to selling a 100Vision T stock in Super-8 would simply be to see if every lab in the world that could process it would be willing to buy a thousand cartridges each.

If one starts to put a list together of every lab AND every Super-8 transfer facility in the world, there probably would be a couple dozen of places that might be interested. Then add in regions of the world that get little Super-8 product yet still have Super-8 labs anyway, such as Australia, India, Mexico, and the demand may be enough to do a run.

Would it take away from the 200 and 500 Vison Stocks, or would a 100T simply give filmmakers more of a pallette to choose from and in essence give filmmakers more of a reason to shoot the format? Would it give filmmakers more of a reason to shoot the Super-8 format instead of 16mm or 35mm, doubtful. But perhaps it would give the vast legions of mini-dv shooters more of a reason to try out FILM rather than simply avoid even learning about film and what the different filmstocks offer.

I know Pro-8mm offers the 100 ASA and the 50 ASA Vision stocks, but one MUST buy their processing at the time of film purchase. If I choose to get the negative processing of the 100 ASA or 50 ASA done at Spectra, "for free", I MUST then transfer with Spectra.

I think Kodak figures with the advent of low cost HI-Def cameras approaching, why bother trying to expand the Super-8 market.

I've found that filmmaking can be learned by either shooting a TON of video footage and diving in and not giving up until the footage has been overedited into a decent product, or one can learn from planning their shoots and shooting responsibly, on film.

Both approaches work, and even the advent of low cost HI-Def won't change that.
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#16 John Pytlak RIP

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Posted 06 May 2005 - 08:46 PM

Again, with 7217 being as good as it is, and 7212 being only slightly sharper, why will this expensive "experiment" really increase the use of Super-8? You had lots of assumptions in your proposal, especially getting a few dozen dealers to each buy 1000 cartridges upfront.
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#17 Daniel Henriquez Ilic

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Posted 07 May 2005 - 10:30 AM

Hello,

From my particular experience, I do agree that the current super8 7217 is a great stock, and that its mid-speed is appreciated when you are working with cameras like ex_Beaulieu Classic Pro8. That kind of cameras have only 90ยบ shutter (guillotine shutter).

Of course as filmmaker, and super8 fan, I think it would be a nice and a coherent evolution, if we could see in the future more emultions in this format... and in my opinion, actual stocks ("17" and "18") should be complemented with daylight balanced stocks in order that the creative use of the format could be consolidated in the industry. For instance I beleive that vision2 250D and then the expected vision2 low-speed daylight stock would be excellent emultions options.

I also support the idea that the EPP stock in super8 is simply great (by experience, custom-loaded EPP) and very good for potential film-school use, as any person with photo or film lab experience may develop it on effective and "easy" E6 chemicals.
Not to mention the fact, that you can also get special effects using this stock and cross-developing in ECN-2. It's not possible to do that with K40, and concerning 7240, that stock is being discontinuated.

I have attached here, a little jpeg, that comes directly from the 2K scan I have done in Park Road Post, New Zealand last month for our technical research project. The actress is Francisca Lewin.

Technical Details :
* Classic Pro8
* super8 7217
* Carl Zeiss Sonnar T* 85mm
* Schneider True Pol
* normal ECN-2 development in Megacolor, Brasil
* flat 2K scan on Spirit Datacine (2K RGB DPX output), Park Road Post, NZ
* draft C/C at 2K resolution in Combustion
* draft Keying (the actress is currently in front of a digicomp blue fabric screen) in Combustion
* scaled down and compressed to jpeg.

/all rights reserved/


The issue is that one way to really see the quality of the super8 frames, is transferring it to HD, or scanning it at 2K. A transfer to SD using a Rank is really not enough, as you are mixing the granulation (that particular nature of the format) with a lot of electronic noise. Not mentionning the artifacts from the SD compressed tape formats, if used also as transfer output.

Best Regards,
Daniel Henriquez Ilic
Santiago, Chile

Attached Images

  • dhi_s8_2k.jpg

Edited by Daniel Henriquez Ilic, 07 May 2005 - 10:33 AM.

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#18 John Hyde

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Posted 07 May 2005 - 12:58 PM

I have been told directly that 50ASA, 100ASA (Vision2), 200ASA (Vision 2) and 500ASA (Vision2) make up the vast majority of film sales at Pro8mm. If Kodak introduces a complete family based on Pro8mm's best selling films, I am sure they would satisfy the basics for most filmmaker's needs.

I am also sure it is clear how important it is to have the finest grain stocks possible when shooting in such a small format. Especially if you want to woo potential customers away from formats like mini DV. Keep in mind that small differences in 35 and 16mm are HUGE in super 8. Take it from me as I have seen it with my own eyes. So, a 100ASA Vision 2 or 50ASA stock may have more dramatic results than you may think.

I really see the release of new super 8 films less as an experiment or money making venture and more as an incentive to get more people to try film. Similar to mini samples of shampoo. If you like the sample, then you are going to buy the big shampoo bottle. And, we all know that the big bottle is where the manufacturer makes all the money.

Not the best example, but, the idea is clear and logical. Kodak needs to get more people into film. So, a good variety of "samples", more extensive promotion, help from dealers, etc. is going to be required. It will take only a small investment by Kodak standards. But, it will be well worth it.

Question: If it is so expensive to create huge quantities of film in super 8, why not put together a slitting and perforating operation like Pro8mm? Cut it down in 35mm in quantities that you need. Then you could make "samples" of anything in super 8.
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#19 Daniel Henriquez Ilic

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Posted 07 May 2005 - 03:46 PM

Keep in mind that small differences in 35 and 16mm are HUGE in super 8. Take it from me as I have seen it with my own eyes. So, a 100ASA Vision 2 or 50ASA stock may have more dramatic results than you may think.



Well, in our project, in the final "piloto" (test) previous to the definitive shooting of the technical short-feature, we have seen the vision2 100T (Pro8/12) and the super8 7217 and super8 7218 finalized on 35mm positive print (2383) through DI blow-up (2K 10 bits log / Spirit scan / Celco Nitro Extreme recorder to intermediate 2242). You are right in that THERE IS a noticeable difference between the v2 100T and the v2 200T, at least acording to that technical context test.
But the v2 200T is really close. The big difference was with the v2 500T, as you could really notice a high degree of granulation in the image.


Regards,
Daniel Henriquez Ilic
Santiago, Chile

Edited by Daniel Henriquez Ilic, 07 May 2005 - 03:47 PM.

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