Jump to content


Photo

Super 16 Stock Recommendation


  • Please log in to reply
8 replies to this topic

#1 Xandy Smith

Xandy Smith
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 12 posts
  • Other
  • Los Angeles

Posted 04 May 2005 - 11:57 AM

Hello- I believe this is my first post here, but I've been reading for months. Wonderful forum, so many great people.

I am working on a Super16mm spec car commercial and would like stock suggestions. I am trying hard to get money together for my own tests, but anyone else's experience would be most appreciated. I'll be shooting all exteriors (except for a couple window-lit interiors) with fairly limited lighting control. The spot will be finished on 16:9 anamorphic standard definition. I am looking for a look as close to sharp and clean 35mm as I can get, and the final look will be somewhat blueish and desaturated (I have an excellent colorist). Also, I will likely be shooting with an A-Minima, so no Fuji stocks. Here's what I'd been considering, I'd love comparissons-

1) 7245 50D- seems the obvious choice, but once i throw a polarizer on and am pointing through a windshield into a car, I am very concerned about having enough light, particularly in CA's June-gloom (I've been carrying a lightmeter around and results scare me). Also, I haven't shot much EXR and love the latitude I get with Vision2.
2) 7212 Vision2 100T- with NO 85. But I'm a little worried about reddish shadows. I'd love if anyone could compare this stock in this situation to 7245.
3) 7205 Vision2 250D- Never shot this stock and I feel the speed/grain is really getting me away from my desired 35mm look, but in the context of the situation, and other ideas, I'd love some input.

Sorry that was so long-winded- I tried answering my questions with past posts, but just can't do it. Thanks in advance for any help.
  • 0

#2 John Pytlak RIP

John Pytlak RIP

    (deceased)

  • Sustaining Members
  • 3499 posts
  • Industry Rep
  • Rochester, NY 14650-1922

Posted 04 May 2005 - 12:12 PM

Hello- I believe this is my first post here, but I've been reading for months. Wonderful forum, so many great people.

I am working on a Super16mm spec car commercial and would like stock suggestions. I am trying hard to get money together for my own tests, but anyone else's experience would be most appreciated. I'll be shooting all exteriors (except for a couple window-lit interiors) with fairly limited lighting control. The spot will be finished on 16:9 anamorphic standard definition. I am looking for a look as close to sharp and clean 35mm as I can get, and the final look will be somewhat blueish and desaturated (I have an excellent colorist). Also, I will likely be shooting with an A-Minima, so no Fuji stocks. Here's what I'd been considering, I'd love comparissons-

1) 7245 50D- seems the obvious choice, but once i throw a polarizer on and am pointing through a windshield into a car, I am very concerned about having enough light, particularly in CA's June-gloom (I've been carrying a lightmeter around and results scare me). Also, I haven't shot much EXR and love the latitude I get with Vision2.
2) 7212 Vision2 100T- with NO 85. But I'm a little worried about reddish shadows. I'd love if anyone could compare this stock in this situation to 7245.
3) 7205 Vision2 250D- Never shot this stock and I feel the speed/grain is really getting me away from my desired 35mm look, but in the context of the situation, and other ideas, I'd love some input.

Sorry that was so long-winded- I tried answering my questions with past posts, but just can't do it. Thanks in advance for any help.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Given that it is mostly daylight illumination, but you need the light, I'd favor using the Kodak VISION2 250D Color Negative Film 7205. A solid normal exposure or slight overexposure should keep the grain low, and your colorist will have an easy time getting the "look" you want.

Do NOT shoot a tungsten film without the 85 filter, expecially if you risk underexposure, as the shadows could get too warm for your taste.
  • 0

#3 Xandy Smith

Xandy Smith
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 12 posts
  • Other
  • Los Angeles

Posted 09 May 2005 - 05:38 PM

Thanks, John, for the quick reply. I managed to get the money together for a stock test and a nice telecine with my great colorist. I'll post my results when I'm done. I plan to test the 7212 both with AND without the 85.
  • 0

#4 J. Lamar King

J. Lamar King
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 764 posts
  • Gaffer
  • Los Angeles

Posted 09 May 2005 - 09:37 PM

Here are some frame grabs from 7212 exposed at e.i. 50 with the 85 filter + Pola. It also does fine at straight or a 1/3 over for telecine. Great stuff, I love it. If you need headroom for overcranking or DOF you might go with the 250D it's very fine grain.

Posted Image

Posted Image
  • 0

#5 Jon Rosenbloom

Jon Rosenbloom
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 713 posts
  • Cinematographer

Posted 09 May 2005 - 10:02 PM

Had the same questions a few weeks ago. Actually, I spoke to a pretty good DP - someone w/ really good credentials (he was at the clubhouse when I called) - and he gave me two pieces of advice which apply to something that'll never be projected in a theatre: Use whatever stock you want, the differences in grain are so minute that you won't ever know the difference in Telecine. That said, if you want to use 100t without the filter, go ahead, you can correct it in the transfer. Or, if you don't want to mess around w/ overexposing the blue layer of a tungsten film, shoot the 250D.

I've shot the 250d on super-16, supervised some of it's transfer, the stuff is beautiful, you could be forgiven for thinking it's 35. Even in regular 16mm, it's very sharp. I'd worry less about the stock, and more about finding a set of primes and a matte-box if you're going for a "sharp and clean" image.

Last, how do I get frame grabs on here?
  • 0

#6 Xandy Smith

Xandy Smith
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 12 posts
  • Other
  • Los Angeles

Posted 10 May 2005 - 01:46 PM

Thanks again guys. I do agree that when reduced to standard video resolutions, the grain is barely an issue. Although I would also have to say I have recently shot 7217 200T and 7218 500T and could tell a difference in grain, and will probably avoid the 500 speed unless I really need it. Another interesting side note was that my colorist used to be a DP and said he used to think the telecine had so much influence on the image that stock didn't matter, but after transferring as much film as he has, he now feels stock choice has a large impact on the final look.
  • 0

#7 Xandy Smith

Xandy Smith
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 12 posts
  • Other
  • Los Angeles

Posted 30 May 2005 - 11:09 AM

Hey- just thought I'd post my test results. First off, this was not a super-scientific test. I did not shoot the same subjects with each filmstock. But the film was all properly exposed (I was metering to expose about 1/2 stop over) and often the subjects are similar, although a setting might range from a locked-off contrasty sunrise scene, to 50mph running footage of a car in overcast weather. I shot 7245 50D, 7212 100T, 7217 200T, and 7205 250D totalling 600ft of Super 16.

Basically, I'd say I agree with J-Ro and the DP he spoke with. While grain is definitely NOT non-existent on the telecined footage, I'd be surprised if anyone could identify one stock from another. That's not to say the grain doesn't vary, it does. I was definitely not impressed with the 7245's grain structure, but I was impressed with its latitude. The flat-passes we did in telecine seemed comparable to the Vision2 stocks. Meanwhile, there are many shots on this 50asa stock where the grain stands out more than on any of the others. Likewise, sometimes grain stands out more on the 100T than the 250D and vice versa. Point is, for my purposes at least, it seems all these films are great, and subject has much more influence on apparent grain than the speed. Meaning for me, that 50asa is just too slow with few benefits over the 250 (we did find ourselves waiting for light to shoot with early in the day of course, and that's not something I want to worry about). On a side note, I shot the 100T and 200T both with and without an 85, and can tell no difference on the digitally corrected image. Also, I would mention that the 100T does stand out a tad from the other stocks as just feeling like it has tighter and smoother grain, generally speaking.

I realize this little write-up of my results isn't exactly scientific, but thought it might still help someone in the future. I also tried not to rattle on about it, so I'm happy to post more specifics if anyone is interested.
  • 0

#8 Dan Salzmann

Dan Salzmann
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1143 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Paris, France

Posted 30 May 2005 - 04:23 PM

You might try 7212 with an 81EF instead of an 85 for a "cooler" correction.
When possible I like to "nudge" the film emulsion in the direction of the grade instead of completely relying on the grade for the colour.
I've noticed that polarizers often bring out odd streaks in car windshields.
This probably comes from anti-glare treatment that is "built-in" to the windshield and not all that even in terms of manufacturing.
  • 0

#9 Sam Wells

Sam Wells
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1751 posts
  • Cinematographer

Posted 31 May 2005 - 10:58 AM

I was definitely not impressed with the 7245's grain structure,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Huh ? It may not be your best choice for "bluish desatrurated" but.....

oh well send me all the unimpressive 7245 you have left over :D

-Sam
  • 0


Technodolly

rebotnix Technologies

Metropolis Post

Willys Widgets

CineLab

Aerial Filmworks

Broadcast Solutions Inc

CineTape

Tai Audio

Rig Wheels Passport

Ritter Battery

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Abel Cine

Visual Products

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Glidecam

Opal

Paralinx LLC

Wooden Camera

The Slider

FJS International, LLC

Visual Products

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Wooden Camera

Abel Cine

Willys Widgets

FJS International, LLC

The Slider

Paralinx LLC

rebotnix Technologies

Technodolly

Ritter Battery

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Opal

Metropolis Post

CineTape

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Glidecam

Aerial Filmworks

CineLab

Rig Wheels Passport

Tai Audio