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Why I decided to go to Uni to become a Cinematographer - and quit a full time job to do so!

Cinematography University National Film School

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#41 Miguel Angel

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Posted 02 June 2015 - 06:04 PM

That would be an interesting reel to watch Bill! :) 
 
I would say I'd share with ye a test for one of my oncoming projects.

 

You have seen that window and that frame before (at night) but I never shot a test in daylight! 

 

A027_C019_0602U3.0000310F%20Readings.jpg

 

Have a good day!


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#42 Bill DiPietra

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Posted 02 June 2015 - 06:28 PM

Very nice, Miguel!  Thanks for sharing!


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#43 Miguel Angel

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 08:24 PM

Another test for the same project, where I have a lot of windows and my lighting package could be 1 joker and 1 celeb, 2 jokers or nothing at all so I wanted to know how far I could push the redone mx in one of my rooms which have a massive window

 

I would be happy with 2 jokers, I could bounce 1 out of the windows and add the other one direct through a light diffusion to create a harsh beam of light and add a moving branch so the light is alive. 

 

Again, I would be happy with 1 joker and 1 celeb as I could use the celeb to backlit the people in some sequences and that would be really handy, still undecided tho! 

 

Maybe 2 jokers and 1 celeb :D 

 

On the other hand, I should be an actor, that's me in the frame :D

 

Guess the lighting setup in this one! :)

 

Have a good day!

Reading%20tests.jpg


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#44 Carl Looper

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 12:09 AM

It's quite peculiar measuring light in terms of iris settings. But it's one to which we've become accustomed.

 

In reality the iris setting isn't a measurement of the light, but a recommended iris setting (a camera setting) that a light meter makes, based on a measurement of the light at a single location.

 

So in an image overlayed with iris settings, each one is saying that if you were to set the iris at the value displayed, that location in the image would be rendered mid-grey. But it tells you nothing about anywhere else in the image. Each iris setting excludes every other, because there is only one iris. If you were to read a distribution of such settings literally (a camera capable of an iris for every pixel !) you would have a completely grey image.

 

The concept of exposure values (EV readings) would be a much better one for quantifying a distribution of light. Because what you really want to know is the relative variation in light, across the image in terms of stops rather than iris settings.

 

Would save having to convert iris settings back into stops, ie. back into a measurement of the light.

 

C


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#45 Bill DiPietra

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 09:33 AM

The concept of exposure values (EV readings) would be a much better one for quantifying a distribution of light. Because what you really want to know is the relative variation in light, across the image in terms of stops rather than iris settings.

 

As in foot-candles?...


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#46 Miguel Angel

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Posted 19 June 2015 - 09:35 AM

Carl

 

I might agree with you.

When I learned still photography and lighting for still photography we used to measure light in EV's. 

 

However, I think that T - stops are more useful for me in terms of evaluating the light in a moving picture because I tend to light in my imagination with a T - stop set in the lens and I can understand how bright or dark is going to be a location when lit based on that information. 

 

For example, if you take a look at the picture, the T stop in camera is 4 1/2 and the measures are based on that T stop as you know! :) 

 

What I need to do next is starting to measure light in FC but I don't know if there is any advantage on doing that nowadays where you see exactly what you are getting in the camera. 

 

It seems to me that it would be really valuable for night sequences and day sequences where you have to put a light on a cherry picker and you need to place it in the right location or else you are screwed! 

 

Or maybe if you need to bounce a light and need to know exactly the quantity of light that you need. 

 

As I said, it is my next step :) 

 

Bill

 

More information on Exposure Values (EV's) on the following links (although I'm pretty sure you know it already):

 

http://www.pictureco...in-photography/

https://en.wikipedia...=Exposure_value

http://www.digital-p...exposure-value/

 

Have a good day. 


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#47 Bill DiPietra

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Posted 19 June 2015 - 09:56 AM

What I need to do next is starting to measure light in FC but I don't know if there is any advantage on doing that nowadays where you see exactly what you are getting in the camera.

 

Actually, one of our instructors at the ASC said that with digital, he measures the light readings in foot candles.  I still think the light meter needs to be pulled out regardless of how much you are seeing on the monitor.


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#48 Miguel Angel

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Posted 19 June 2015 - 10:33 AM

It would be very interesting to hear the reasons behind getting readings in FC as opposed as in T - stops :) 

 

I also think the light meter is a fantastic tool and it is one that I need to have at hand. 

 

Hence, if someone wants to chime in, feel free to join the conversation! 

 

Have a good day!


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#49 Bill DiPietra

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Posted 19 June 2015 - 05:55 PM

It would be very interesting to hear the reasons behind getting readings in FC as opposed as in T - stops :)

 

I'm only speculating, but I imagine it's more about just getting some kind of luminance reading so you know where you are light-wise, and not tying yourself to a single stop since that's tweaked through the monitor so much these days.


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#50 Carl Looper

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Posted 20 June 2015 - 01:25 AM

Yeah when it comes to lighting you're interested in the distribution of the light. Is it too hot here. Is it too dark there. And adjusting the lights accordingly. And you work it in terms of the film's latitude, which is in terms of stops (or one you'll have converted into such if it was originally in a log10 scale).

 

Because we think in terms of stops. Even if we're reading aperture values. Between f/2.0 and f/2.8 we'll read it as difference of one stop. We're interested in that difference and that difference being in terms of stops. We mentally convert the difference in f-numbers into such. It's how we are able to get the lighting perfectly right.

 

And a meter that already provides readings in that format is far more convenient. I find. But most of the time it doesn't matter. One becomes used to reading f-numbers anyway.

 

I haven't worked in foot-candles but I imagine that would be similarly convenient.

 

C


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#51 Carl Looper

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Posted 20 June 2015 - 01:43 AM

Foot-candles (or lux values) are more convenient than f-numbers.  But not quite as convenient as EV numbers.

 

C


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#52 Miguel Angel

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 09:54 AM

Thank you Carl and Bill! :) 

 

Have a good day!


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#53 Simon Wyss

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 11:03 AM

Jerry Lewis, The Total Film-Maker, 1971:

 

I spent weeks in the production departement. They could never find me. Or I was by the camera. “Why does that turn? How does it turn to what? Where does he get the pictures they make? Why does it see people in that part, but when it turns over, I see no people? I see a black thing. What’s moving? That part in front is what?” “It’s a glass piece. A prism.” “Oh, I see. And why does that boom go off and I can’t step off it unless they give me permission?” “Because it will swing up.” “Well, why does it do that?”

 

“Well, it’s counter-balanced.”

 

“With what?”

 

“Mercury.”

 

“Oh, mercury. I see. Well, why does he push it? And why doesn’t the other guy?”

 

“He can’t. He’s not in that union.”

 

Laugh! Hollow!

 

“Lights? You have got to have all those lights?”

 

“Yes.”

 

“Why?”

 

“Because you have to have four hundred foot candle.”

 

“Footcandle? You have candles you bring in with your feet?”


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#54 Miguel Angel

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Posted 03 October 2015 - 09:31 AM

Big step forward!
 

I will be the b - camera operator in a new TV Series here in Ireland from Monday onwards.

It is just a 5 weeks mini series but it is a super big step for me! 

Hopefully everything goes well, we will be shooting in very tight spaces, almost all hand - held and with a super talented director and a marvellous cinematographer! 

Hence, looking forward to learning a lot and to rocking it too! :) 
 

Have a lovely day! 


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#55 Satsuki Murashige

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Posted 03 October 2015 - 12:51 PM

Congrats Miguel! Moving ahead at light speed it seems ;)
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#56 Satsuki Murashige

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Posted 03 October 2015 - 01:09 PM

It would be very interesting to hear the reasons behind getting readings in FC as opposed as in T - stops :) 
 
I also think the light meter is a fantastic tool and it is one that I need to have at hand. 
 
Hence, if someone wants to chime in, feel free to join the conversation! 
 
Have a good day!


Sorry I'm late to the party on this one. My feeling is that accurate f-stop readings with your meter rely on reliable ISO values. After all, what do you do first with a meter but set the ISO value? If one changes, so does the other. And ISO values in the digital age are somewhat arbitrary - a C300, Alexa, Epic and F55 all set to 800 ISO are going to be all over the place exposure-wise to start with. So unless you've calibrated your meter to the sensor you will be using, metering in stops will result in arbitrary values. If all you want to know is relative values between different readings on set, then it still works but it can be unnecessarily confusing if f/2.8 is not T2.8 on the lens. At that point you might as well work in EVs.

Footcandles on the other hand are an absolute measurement of how much light is falling on a subject. So it becomes a better way for a gaffer and DP to communicate how much light will be required for any given setup. And especially useful during a location scout or prelight day when you most likely won't have a camera to look though and may not even know what camera you will be using yet.
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#57 Satsuki Murashige

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Posted 03 October 2015 - 01:11 PM

Double post
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#58 Albion Hockney

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Posted 03 October 2015 - 04:40 PM

Satsuki are you suggesting 800 ISO is not the same on all cameras? doesn't that defeat the purpose of ISO....

 

I assumed they are all accurate... I hope ...or at least within like 1/2-1/4 stop ...have you tested this ever?


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#59 Satsuki Murashige

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Posted 05 October 2015 - 03:19 AM

Not really the thread for this discussion but no, in my personal experience ISO on all the various digital cameras don't match up at all. I have not done side by side tests, but it's pretty obvious when you bring in the B camera of a different make and model than the A Camera into the same lighting setup and you have to play with ND and ISO to get the exposures to match. Even with the same camera, middle grey will vary radically depending on the shooting mode, gamma, and viewing LUT choices. I guess this is really because ISO in a digital camera is kind of a misnomer. It's really just electronic gain applied to the sensor's native sensitivity. So if you are relying on the light meter's ISO to match your camera, you're kinda screwed. On the other hand, at least you can judge the image on a calibrated monitor with a waveform...
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#60 Miguel Angel

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Posted 05 October 2015 - 04:16 PM

Congrats Miguel! Moving ahead at light speed it seems ;)

 

Haha, not really! It will take me 10 years to become a camera operator!! and another 10 to become a cinematographer!!

That's the saying, right? :) 

 

Thanks though! ;) 

Said that, I think I'm going to learn loads in this tv show because the dop is a fantastic camera operator and also an amazing cinematographer.

 

Also, sometimes it is very difficult to keep the characters in frame, right? :D especially if you are on a 75 / 100 / 135  ;)  ;) and you have to guess how they are going to move without having done a rehearsal! 

 

Ask me when this is finished but right now I'm the happiest person alive!!!  :wub:  :wub:

 

Have a lovely evening! 


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