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No 1080i or 1080P On the HD100?


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#1 RazaMalik

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Posted 09 May 2005 - 07:32 PM

is it right that this camera is only offering 720p? does that mean there'd be no 1080i or 1080p available?
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#2 Trevor Swaim

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Posted 13 May 2005 - 06:06 PM

is it right that this camera is only offering 720p? does that mean there'd be no 1080i or 1080p available?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


from what i gather, no. it will offer 720 24p uncompressed to hard drive. imo this with the ability to use broadcast quality lenses should be the best combo for the indie filmmaker.
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#3 RazaMalik

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Posted 17 May 2005 - 07:32 PM

"HD output 1080i/50 or /60 signal off recorded video" this is what i found on http://www.jvcpro.co...?item=GY-HD100E what is it supposed to mean? i thought this camera only supported 720p HDV1. would there be any benifit of converting 720p to 1080i?

any idea about the price for this cam in UK INC VAT? its said to be $6999 in the USA and that comes down to £3,817.43 GBP but i am quite sure it would sell for much more than that here . Why do we have to pay more for our gear here in UK
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#4 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 18 May 2005 - 03:32 AM

Hi,

We don't; I refuse to do it. Fly to the US, buy it, and walk back through the green channel with a smile on your face.

Phil
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#5 Rachel Oliver

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Posted 18 May 2005 - 05:35 AM

Hi;

Absolutely, we get very ripped off here, why not use the extra cash for a little holiday in the USA!

Olly
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#6 thomas-english

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Posted 23 May 2005 - 05:20 PM

Can u still right it off against your tax though with an american receipt?
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#7 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 23 May 2005 - 06:57 PM

Hi,

Yes.

Phil
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#8 greg30

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Posted 20 June 2005 - 04:16 PM

hi can anyone explain to me all the different variations i.e 1080i. 720p. 720/24p etc etc sorry this is short but already tried psting four times and has not worked
many thanks
greg30
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#9 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 20 June 2005 - 06:19 PM

i = interlaced scan
P = progressive scan
720 = 1280 x 720 pixels
1080 = 1920 x 1080 pixels

Usually if you put the letter "i" after the number, you are referring to the FIELD rate (and there are two fields per frame), but if you put the letter "P" after the number, you are referring to the FRAME rate. However, some people refer to 60i as 30i sometimes just to confuse you.

HD broadcast formats in the U.S. tend to be either 60i/1080 (meaning 60 fields per second, interlaced-scan, 1920 x 1080 pixels) or sometimes 60P/720 (60 frames per second, progressive-scan, 1280 x 720 pixels.)

But capture formats may include different progressive-scan frame rates, 24P being the most common for a "film-look" (or 25P for Europe), and higher frame rates used for slow-motion effects.

So the Panasonic Varicam, for example, always records to 60P/720, but can shoot at a variety of frame rates like 24P (it adds redundant frames to the recording to add up to 60 no matter what.) The Sony F900 can shoot and record 1080i or 1080P, at 23.98P, 24P, 25P, 29.97P, 30P, 50i, 59.94i, or 60i.
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#10 greg30

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Posted 22 June 2005 - 03:44 PM

i = interlaced scan
P = progressive scan
720 = 1280 x 720 pixels
1080 = 1920 x 1080 pixels

Usually if you put the letter "i" after the number, you are referring to the FIELD rate (and there are two fields per frame), but if you put the letter "P" after the number, you are referring to the FRAME rate. However, some people refer to 60i as 30i sometimes just to confuse you.

HD broadcast formats in the U.S. tend to be either 60i/1080 (meaning 60 fields per second, interlaced-scan, 1920 x 1080 pixels) or sometimes 60P/720 (60 frames per second, progressive-scan, 1280 x 720 pixels.)

But capture formats may include different progressive-scan frame rates, 24P being the most common for a "film-look" (or 25P for Europe), and higher frame rates used for slow-motion effects.

So the Panasonic Varicam, for example, always records to 60P/720, but can shoot at a variety of frame rates like 24P (it adds redundant frames to the recording to add up to 60 no matter what.)  The Sony F900 can shoot and record 1080i or 1080P, at 23.98P, 24P, 25P, 29.97P, 30P, 50i, 59.94i, or 60i.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi David,

May I take this opportunity to firstly say thanks. i've been puzzling over those things for some time.

Secondly may I just say that although I do work in the industry I am not, unfortunately, a DOP despite what it says on my profile don't know how that got there, besides I imagine you must of thought they were unusual question fora a DOP. Unfortunately, your answers have raised a couple more questions. However you've already been kind enouigh to explain my first questions so please don't feel obliged if you want to leave it there, here goes..

Firstly, how much better is 720 over 1080 if any as it sounds like they are both excepted broadcast formats?

Secondly, why is 24p 25p in Europe and are they the same slightly different or completely at odds?

3) you say the varicam adds redundant frames to add up to 60 e.g in 24p but does this effect quality in anyway?

4)you say the Sony F900 shoots both p and i at 1080 but I am interested to know the difference between 23.98p and 24p if there is any that is?

Lastly, how does all this relate to the hd100. Is it as good as they say it is ?

Many thanks for your time
Greg30

Edited by greg30, 22 June 2005 - 03:47 PM.

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#11 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 22 June 2005 - 06:47 PM

HD broadcast in the U.S. is either 60i/1080 or 60P/720. In Europe, I think it is 50i/1080 or 50P/720.

1920 x 1080 is more resolution than 1280 x 720, but progressive-scan has better vertical resolution than interlaced-scan, so there are lots of arguments as to whether 720P is better or worse than 1080i. It probably is similar. 1080i is more common.

For a transfer to film, shooting in 1080P would have twice the resolution of 720P (about a 2MP frame versus a 1MP frame.)

I believe the JVC HD100 captures 24P/720 or 30P/720 but records it either as 60P/720 or 60i/1080. The HD100E for Europe captures 25P/720 but records it to either 50P/720 or 50i/1080. I think -- I'm not completely sure about that camera.

TV in Europe has traditionally been 50hz (50i or 25 fps) due to the power and TV in the U.S. has traditionally been 60hz (60i or 30 fps) due to our power. Trouble is that in order to fit color into the originally b&w 60i NTSC signal, we dropped the rate slightly to 59.94i (or 29.97 fps). So 24 fps actually is 23.976 fps if recorded to 59.94i (with a 3:2 pulldown).

Visually, there is no difference between 24P and 23.98P.
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#12 greg30

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Posted 23 June 2005 - 02:58 PM

HD broadcast in the U.S. is either 60i/1080 or 60P/720.  In Europe, I think it is 50i/1080 or 50P/720.

1920 x 1080 is more resolution than 1280 x 720, but progressive-scan has better vertical resolution than interlaced-scan, so there are lots of arguments as to whether 720P is better or worse than 1080i.  It probably is similar.  1080i is more common.

For a transfer to film, shooting in 1080P would have twice the resolution of 720P (about a 2MP frame versus a 1MP frame.)

I believe the JVC HD100 captures 24P/720 or 30P/720 but records it either as 60P/720 or 60i/1080. The HD100E for Europe captures 25P/720 but records it to either 50P/720 or 50i/1080.  I think -- I'm not completely sure about that camera.

TV in Europe has traditionally been 50hz (50i or 25 fps) due to the power and TV in the U.S. has traditionally been 60hz (60i or 30 fps) due to our power.  Trouble is that in order to fit color into the originally b&w 60i NTSC signal, we dropped the rate slightly to 59.94i (or 29.97 fps).  So 24 fps actually is 23.976 fps if recorded to 59.94i (with a 3:2 pulldown).

Visually, there is no difference between 24P and 23.98P.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Hi David,

Thanks for the reply. I was just wondering what the implications might be for 720p/24fps capture being recorded as 720p/60 why is it done like that?

Also wondered if you are familiar with any Dogme films. I really like the dogme lo fi (i.e not film) aesthetic. I was told that films like The Idiots and Festen were shot on digi 8 yet they still seem very "filmic". It would be great to hear your opinoin as a DOP.

Thanks again Greg30

P.S. I'm lookin for a low end "Film look" camera do you know any others apart from the HD 100 but still in that price range? oh yeh also what's 3:2 pulldown?
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#13 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 23 June 2005 - 07:09 PM

Well the advantage of 720/60P is that it allow you the possibility of higher frame rates, either for a slow-motion effect if played back at 24 fps, or for a higher sampling rate (better temporal resolution) for smoother motion in a 60P broadcast (just like 60i has smoother motion than 24P). The only problem is that 60P or 60i photography played at those high rates doesn't look "film like" because it's smoother.

There really isn't an issue with shooting at 24P but recording at 60P, or 60i, etc. In fact, even with 24 fps film, you really don't see it shown that way. In a movie theater, there is a dual-bladed shutter to flash each frame twice, so you get 48 flashes per second. On an NTSC, 24 fps film is transferred to 60i with a 3:2 pulldown. On PAL, it is transferred at 25 fps to 50i. So 24 fps is almost always converted to something else for viewing in a way.

3:2 pulldown is how you convert 24 frames into 60 fields. If you merely split each frame into a field, you'd have 48 fields, so you need to repeat some of them in a pattern to add up to 60. The pattern is called 3:2 pulldown. Basically there are five video frames for every four film frames. The first film frame will be represented by two video fields, but the next film frame will be represented by three video fields. Since every two fields is a frame of video, this means that the third video frame will have one field from one film frame but the other field from the next film frame.

This is from my cinematography book:

Posted Image

Transferring 24P or 24 fps film to PAL doesn't have this problem since PAL is 50i. You just run the footage at 25 fps instead of 24 fps, convert every frame into two fields, so 25 frames become 50 fields.
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#14 Brant Collins

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Posted 27 June 2005 - 10:29 PM

The gy-hd100 seems to be a great camera for the price. I am worried about the 720 vs 1081 but the Fuji lens makes this camera very attractive. and the 24P. Wish ther was a HD Canon XL!
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#15 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 09 July 2005 - 11:38 PM

Hi David can you swith the frame rate with the shutter speed
and get somewhat the same result  like on a SLR? Reciprocity failure
comes to mind but this is video. Hope that made since. java script:emoticon(':blink:')
    Also is it better to shoot in 24p and do the conversion
later (if possible) if some  other footage was shot at 30i at a later date
by a different DP.

Thank you for your time
Tony B

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I don't really understand either question, sorry.

What is the end format you are trying to achieve?
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#16 Tony_Beazley

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Posted 12 July 2005 - 08:50 PM

I don't really understand either question, sorry. 

What is the end format you are trying to achieve?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


David it was way to late at night to write about what I was thinking...
sorry about that :)
Is it better to go ahead and shoot in 60i or 30p(frame mode) to match up
with other cameras that will come out in the next few years as well as from
an editing view point? I will be shooting a doc that will span over
the next 4-6 years at least.
I'm just thinking about the end product and how good the cameras
will be then.
I will at least shoot in 16x9.And there will probably be other DP's that
wil shoot also. I can only get a sony vx 2100 for this week.

Thanks
Tony B.

Edited by TonyB, 12 July 2005 - 08:52 PM.

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#17 David Mullen ASC

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Posted 12 July 2005 - 11:15 PM

For a documentary, you'd be safer shooting in 60i for a long-term project, not that 30P is going to go away, just that 30P isn't very convertable to other formats like PAL.

Shooting 16x9 is a good idea.
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#18 Tony_Beazley

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Posted 13 July 2005 - 04:35 PM

Thank you David. I really do appreciate your help. :)

Tony B
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#19 Michael Maier

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 06:54 AM

I believe the JVC HD100 captures 24P/720 or 30P/720 but records it either as 60P/720 or 60i/1080. The HD100E for Europe captures 25P/720 but records it to either 50P/720 or 50i/1080.  I think -- I'm not completely sure about that camera.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Isn't it the same way the DVX100 and XL2 do?
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#20 Mrbenz05

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Posted 28 August 2005 - 10:43 PM

Can tell me what is the best camcorder to purchase that uses mini dvds and that will be to make dvds for church.
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