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Lens confusion - Pan Cinor, please help!!

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#1 Julian Fletcher

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Posted 21 January 2015 - 01:32 PM

Hi All,

Please can you help me clear up something that is confusing me, based on what I've read online.

 

The lens in question is the Pan Cinor 17-85 f2. This is the one with the bolt on viewfinder that is attached to the side, and features a focusing aid in the viewfinder.

 

My questions

a) How many versions of this lens have there been?

B) Which ones feature a coincident image focusing aid, and which ones feature a split image? I did not realise that some feature one type, and some feature another. Is this true? How do you tell the difference?

 

I believe that there is also a 17-85 f3.8,which has no focusing aid in its viewfinder at all.

 

Your help would be much appreciated!!

 

Cheers

Julian


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#2 Dom Jaeger

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Posted 21 January 2015 - 07:49 PM

According to the Bolex service manual for Som Berthiot 16mm zooms, there were 3 basic versions of the Pan Cinor P 85/2:

 

Pan Cinor 85/2 CM with coincident-image rangefinder

Pan Cinor 85/2 SV without viewfinder (designed for reflex Bolexes)

Pan Cinor 85/2 T with split image rangefinder

 

The service drawings show that the split image finder has a dog leg that bends in two angles (like earlier Som Berthiot zooms), while the coincident finder dog leg is a hard right angle, basically two tubes intersecting. Those finders were designed to be positioned where the eye-level focusser fits on a non-reflex Bolex. There were other coincident-image versions made with extended viewfinder tubes to fit on bayonet mount Bolexes, and on other non-reflex 16mm cameras like Auricons.

 

The Pan Cinor 85/3.8 is the compact version, and came either with a coincident rangefinder (CM) or without a viewfinder (SV).

 

The Bolex Colector website has pictures of some of these models:

http://www.bolexcoll...60berthiot.html


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#3 Julian Fletcher

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Posted 22 January 2015 - 03:08 AM

According to the Bolex service manual for Som Berthiot 16mm zooms, there were 3 basic versions of the Pan Cinor P 85/2:

 

Pan Cinor 85/2 CM with coincident-image rangefinder

Pan Cinor 85/2 SV without viewfinder (designed for reflex Bolexes)

Pan Cinor 85/2 T with split image rangefinder

 

The service drawings show that the split image finder has a dog leg that bends in two angles (like earlier Som Berthiot zooms), while the coincident finder dog leg is a hard right angle, basically two tubes intersecting. Those finders were designed to be positioned where the eye-level focusser fits on a non-reflex Bolex. There were other coincident-image versions made with extended viewfinder tubes to fit on bayonet mount Bolexes, and on other non-reflex 16mm cameras like Auricons.

 

The Pan Cinor 85/3.8 is the compact version, and came either with a coincident rangefinder (CM) or without a viewfinder (SV).

 

The Bolex Colector website has pictures of some of these models:

http://www.bolexcoll...60berthiot.html

 

That's a huge help - MANY THANKS indeed !!

I can do a visual check on the design of the viewfinder tube now. Many thanks.


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#4 ZHAOYANG CHANG

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 04:58 AM

I have the last version of the pan-cinor17-85mm f2, which is with 90 degree finder and coincident image focus aid. although it is not easy to change the position of the viewfinder as the old version, but it is easier to focus. I also have a angenieux 17-68mm f2.2 , it is better lens than pan-cinor, but its aperture iris are before the prism, so it is more didficult to use when stop down, but it is very easy to change the position of the finder, also made it easy to open the camera door.
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#5 Will Montgomery

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 12:09 PM

Can you post a picture of it? I had one that I wanted to use on my Kodak K-100 a few years ago. Beautiful lens, but the viewfinder was for framing only; you couldn't focus with it which seemed very bizarre to me. Never understood how the image could basically be more or less in focus and not change no matter how I shifted focus on the main lens. I mean the image really didn't change when you adjust focus...


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#6 ZHAOYANG CHANG

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Posted 31 January 2015 - 09:57 AM

All of my reflexfinder lenses are on the cleaning service now, so it will be back in 1 or 2 weeks

When I got my pan-cinor 17-85 I also had the focusing problem, because there is a very small screw on the diopt adjust ring on the eye piece.

it locked the ring and I didn't have so small screw driver to  untight it.

I think your lens either had the same problem as mine or the focusing system is defective.

I will upload some pics after I got my lenses back.


Edited by ZHAOYANG CHANG, 31 January 2015 - 09:58 AM.

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#7 Charlie Peich

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Posted 31 January 2015 - 12:52 PM

Rank also sold the Pan Cinor 17-85 in 1970.

 

Does one of your Reflex 17-85's look like the one that is mounted on the Auricon Cine-Voice conversion in the top picture?

 

The finder was not a good design, too fragil for news work. I worked at a TV Station that had 2 of those 17-85's with the finder as in the picture. With rough handling, the finder tube going back to the operator's eye would snap off (red oval) from the tube (blue arrow) coming out of the lens (never on my camera, however). Be careful handling your lens! That finder extension tube is not a handle!

 

Pan-Cinor%2017-85mm%20Zoom%2001_zpsggx4n

 

 

 

We used our lenses on Auricons, I recall you could get the lens with different lengths of the tube (blue arrow) coming off the lens to fit cameras that had more separation between the lens mount and the side of the camera.

 

The lens had a nice look for flesh tones when photographed on Ektachrome 7242. There was a softness to the lens that was also pleasing, kind of like a built-in low power Soft-Efx filter. Good for talking heads.

 

70-12%20---%20Rank%20Monital%20Lenses%20

 

 

 

 

 

Early 16mm Pan-Cinor zoom lenses looked like the one mounted on the the Arri 16S camera. Of course this is not the reflex version with the side finder, but you can get an idea of the specs of the lens and the chrome finish instead of the later black finish. 

 

Pan%20Cinor%2017.5-70mm%20Zoom%20111957%

 

An article on the Ang. 16-68mm lens when it was 1st introduced by Bell & Howell in the early part of 1958. FYI.

 

58-3%20---%20Angenieux%2017-68mm%20zoom%

 

58-3%20---%20Angenieux%2017-68mm%20zoom%


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#8 ZHAOYANG CHANG

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Posted 18 February 2015 - 11:43 AM

My lenses are back now,

I was wrong about the focusing aid of the Angenieux 17-68mm on my last post.

It is with micro prism not ground glass. It is easy to focus from F2.2 to F5.6 on the long end, it will become too dark too focus further  than F5.6.

The New version of Pan-cinor 85/2 has the fixed angle of the viewfinder, only the inner frame is adjustable.

The old silver version of Pan-cinor has one more adjust ring to be able to change the angle of the view finder, but without focus aid.

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#9 ZHAOYANG CHANG

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Posted 18 February 2015 - 11:52 AM

My lenses are back now,

I was wrong about the focusing aid of the Angenieux 17-68mm on my last post.

It is with micro prism not ground glass. It is easy to focus from F2.2 to F5.6 on the long end, it will become too dark too focus further  than F5.6.

The New version of Pan-cinor 85/2 has the fixed angle of the viewfinder, only the inner frame is adjustable.

The old silver version of Pan-cinor has one more adjust ring to be able to change the angle of the view finder, but without focus aid.

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