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Red One MX or Black Magic 4K


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#1 Max Johic

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Posted 13 March 2015 - 02:56 AM

Hi guys i have problem i can buy Red one MX camera for 5k or Black magic k4 i have set of prime Yashica ML lenses 2.8. I know MX is a heavy camera but i can get entire package for 5k and i dont mind working hard for my shoots and this camera has about 2000h on. It shoots 4.5k and is same camera use on Che and girl with dragon tattoo now which one to get. Black 4k has so many issues like that vertical pattern noise and i am not sure if they fixed any of the problems and updates take so long.

PS if i go with black magic 4k which mount do i need for Yashica lenses PL or EF

Thanks


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#2 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 13 March 2015 - 11:23 AM

I'd recommend buying neither, unless you have money to burn. And if you do have money to burn, then rent whatever camera is needed as needed, since they all change all the time.

The basics of shooting, if you're aiming on learning, can be learned on any camera system and in fact the more limiting the system generally the more you learn.

Camera has very little to do with how either Che or Dragon Tattoo looks-- if you think you'll get that look out of an MX just out of the box, you'll be quite surprised since what you're generally seeing is production design.

You know, i never thought i'd say it, but maybe if you really MUST buy something-- a DSLR, like the Sonyt A7s, which'll be a fin for giggles camera even after new cameras come out.


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#3 Tyler Purcell

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Posted 13 March 2015 - 12:32 PM

Plus… the RED camera's require quite a lot of post workflow. So seeing instant results and judging them is quite complicated and requires skills in post production to verify you're doing well in the shooting department. Buying a cheap camera to have fun with, even a Blackmagic Pocket camera… is probably a good way to start. The files pop right into any quicktime native editor and on "video" mode, the camera shoots like a camcorder, giving you exactly what you see in the display. Plus, the one thing you may not realize is… to operate the Red and BMCC 4K, you really need a viewfinder, which can get expensive and make the rig a log bigger. Plus storage is outrageously expensive for both of those cameras. 


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#4 Oron Cohen

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Posted 13 March 2015 - 12:35 PM


Hi guys i have problem i can buy Red one MX camera for 5k or Black magic k4 i have set of prime Yashica ML lenses 2.8. I know MX is a heavy camera but i can get entire package for 5k and i dont mind working hard for my shoots and this camera has about 2000h on. It shoots 4.5k and is same camera use on Che and girl with dragon tattoo now which one to get. Black 4k has so many issues like that vertical pattern noise and i am not sure if they fixed any of the problems and updates take so long.

PS if i go with black magic 4k which mount do i need for Yashica lenses PL or EF

Thanks

Could you elaborate a bit more about why you like to buy a camera? what kind of work you do? Is it for a specific project? What's your experience with both? more info the better.

 

I used to shoot a lot on the RED ONE, it's very solid, but RED are going to stop supporting it properly soon. It's a PL mount Camera, there is an option for some Nikon mount I never used, no EF as far as I remember. 

I personally only used it with proper Cine lenses, which will cost you 20K+ and a lot of lights, and you'll need a powerful machine to work on it in post if you like to work on it yourself (Mac Pro etc, no laptops). 

Also, support is 35mm film world, meaning heavy tripods, and any other mounting or steadycam would need proper (expensive) equipment. 

 

As you stated you have really Yashica lenses, which are a lower cost version of the wonderful Zeiss Contax which in themselves considered inexpensive ( a steal really) for RED users, I'm not sure it'll be a good idea for you to get into RED One world. 

Maybe Scarlet MX. 


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#5 Bill DiPietra

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Posted 13 March 2015 - 12:51 PM

The basics of shooting, if you're aiming on learning, can be learned on any camera system and in fact the more limiting the system generally the more you learn.

 

I can't stress how on-point Adrian is with this.  This is another reason I still prefer to have people learn on an MOS film camera.  You are forced to tell a story visually and you are also learning the discipline of film at the same time.


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#6 Max Johic

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Posted 13 March 2015 - 12:54 PM

Hi guy well i was thinking that if i am going to spend 4k on a camera like black magic and not including extra batteries and hard drive. But for same price i can get mx i know hd space is required for big raw files but i will be only shooting small personal projects few min in length. I do have dedicated mac pro 2009 32gb memory quad core 2.66 2 gtx 660.
 
My interest is cinematography and working with raw files grading making a shoot beautiful telling a story and i was thinking why not just get dedicated camera where my only option would be black magic 4k but with all the problems and crappy support why not just get red mx
 
What do you guys think about 5D mark 3 with magic lantern.
 

Thanks guys for all the help

 

Here is what i can get with mx

 

RED ONE MX Body – Serial Number: 4711 on 2000 working hours - 4800 all included and shipping
- Break Out Video Box (ELEMENT TECHNIKA)
- Bridge Plate
- Top Mount (x2)
- Universal Mount (x2)
- Handle Mount
- Shoulder Dovetail
- Left and Right Handle
- Top Handle- Side Handle (x2)
- Monitor 5" LCD
- Viewfinder (EVF)
- RED ONE Hard Drive
- RED Compact Flash (CF) Memory Card 16GB ( x8)
- Black Rods 18" (x2)
- EVF Cable
- Hard Drive Cable
- XLR Cable
- V-Lock Battery Plate with Hard Drive Mount
- Power Supply for Hard Drive
- RED MAGIC Arm 5"
- RED MAGIC Arm 9"
- Heavy Duty Flight Case ( PELICAN )


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#7 Max Johic

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Posted 13 March 2015 - 12:56 PM

 

Could you elaborate a bit more about why you like to buy a camera? what kind of work you do? Is it for a specific project? What's your experience with both? more info the better.

 

I used to shoot a lot on the RED ONE, it's very solid, but RED are going to stop supporting it properly soon. It's a PL mount Camera, there is an option for some Nikon mount I never used, no EF as far as I remember. 

I personally only used it with proper Cine lenses, which will cost you 20K+ and a lot of lights, and you'll need a powerful machine to work on it in post if you like to work on it yourself (Mac Pro etc, no laptops). 

Also, support is 35mm film world, meaning heavy tripods, and any other mounting or steadycam would need proper (expensive) equipment. 

 

As you stated you have really Yashica lenses, which are a lower cost version of the wonderful Zeiss Contax which in themselves considered inexpensive ( a steal really) for RED users, I'm not sure it'll be a good idea for you to get into RED One world. 

Maybe Scarlet MX. 

 

Scarlet is out of my price range i am on a budget here 5000 Canadian and can ayshica ml lense be used on MX body do i just need the adapter.

 

Thanks for the help


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#8 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 13 March 2015 - 01:05 PM

The problem you'll run into with the red, aside from the fact it's basically EoL, is that you'll need to spend tens of thousands on lenses; or rent them. You can do a Nikon mount; sure, but I don't even know where to find them these days.

In truth; a 5D might be more interesting. RAW -v- non RAW doesn't really much matter. In fact, I'd argue that if you can expose a wonderful image on h.264 in 8 bit which holds up then you can EASILY expose RAW. The reverse is not true.

I'll shot me age here a bit, but when I was in film school we had to start on black and white reversal in 16mm on bolex, then move up to color reversal, and then eventually to S16mm Neg on an SR3. There were also video cameras (XL1, for example) out; but they started us on film for our personal projects etc because it's harder to form a good/acceptable image and made you think. Now a days, you have the reversal "film" of say a highly compressed vDSLR vs the "neg" of something like a BM Pocket or an Alexa. So it's good; I think, to learn on that whcih is harder to form an image and then gradutate to make your life easier.

 

That said, the camera is largely irrelevent. If you really want to make "cinematic" films, then your investment would be much better placed in lighting and grip, or, in a specific project for production design. These are the things which make the film watchable, not the camera. You can shoot on the Red Epic Dragon, or the Arri Alexa 65 and pull out a set of Master Anamorphics, but if you're filming a dull white room with poor lighting and lackluster actors, it'll be just as bas as if you shot it on a Palm Treo from the early 2000s.

 

One of the biggest detriments, I think, to the overall quality of work these days is honestly the notion that it's all in the camera-- that we've all to an extent bought into the hype of the newest and best systems to cover our own asses which then forces our hands to work more sloppily than we had in times past (that and monitors-- monitors often bedevil us) though that is a much longer discussion not pertinait necessarily here.

 

Now; all that said, and if it's not TL;DR, then of those options I would honestly consider the 5D. If only because it can be an augment to other cameras, and you can explore other types of shooting (time lapse) and keep it around for stills for years (e.g. location scouting, lighting set ups, working on looks, doing a wardrobe test really fast with an actress and applying a LUT to it etc etc etc). Hell the MK2 has already outlived many systems on the market and infact still seems to be working on occasion.

ML is nice to play with, i suppose, but as it's not "official," it's kind a PITA to be honest.


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#9 Oron Cohen

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Posted 13 March 2015 - 01:23 PM

From what you're asking,  I actually would go with Blackmagic, but not the 4K, the Pocket with a Metaboones EF Speedbooster.

 

I recently shot with it, and out of the box it felt so much better than a 5D. more like a cinema camera.

It's shoots 10 bit, 4:2:2 in Prores HQ and also shoots RAW 12bit, which is prefect for you to play with the colour in post. it also got more dynamic range or at least the same as RED from what I saw, defiantly in RAW it's the same, but highlight rolloff is nicer on BMPCC.  

 

Also, it got MFT mount, so if you feel like from time to time you want to go super16, it opens up a huge options for other lens mounts adapters and lenses. 

 

BUT, just as a note, I would wait with buying a camera after NAB which is only a month away. 


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#10 Tyler Purcell

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Posted 13 March 2015 - 01:50 PM

 

Hi guy well i was thinking that if i am going to spend 4k on a camera like black magic and not including extra batteries and hard drive. But for same price i can get mx i know hd space is required for big raw files but i will be only shooting small personal projects few min in length. I do have dedicated mac pro 2009 32gb memory quad core 2.66 2 gtx 660.
 
My interest is cinematography and working with raw files grading making a shoot beautiful telling a story and i was thinking why not just get dedicated camera where my only option would be black magic 4k but with all the problems and crappy support why not just get red mx
 
What do you guys think about 5D mark 3 with magic lantern.

 

You can tell a story with an iPhone and a decent camera app with manual adjustments and lens adaptor. I was stuck telling stories with standard definition equipment for a decade before moving to high definition. The quality you can achieve with an iPhone these day's is far better then what we had in the SD day's. Today, people seem fixated on telling stories with the highest quality camera possible, yet amazingly enough, most theatrical workflows are 2k and mostly all cinemas project in 2k as well. So the point of needing/wanting a camera with resolution of 4k or better, is kinda flabbergasting to me. 

 

If you're learning, the key is for the camera to be on you ALL THE TIME. You wanna pull it out at a moments notice and shoot stuff. The BMC 4K and Red camera's aren't really designed for that work. They need fancy shoulder kits in order to shoot hand-held and good luck trying to use anything else but a decent set of sticks. This means, you can't carry around the camera all day, the camera lives at home 99% of the time. Plus, big camera's draw attention, LOTS of attention. So if you're going out and shooting random stuff, you don't want that huge bulk so all you get is people waving at the camera or worse, being kicked out of places you want to shoot because they think you're producing a hollywood feature… it happens here all the time. 

 

These are some of the reasons I invested in the Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera. Sure, it's not quite 2k, but it's close. Sure it "looks" like a toy, but it's absolutely not. My camera's live with me all the time, in a tiny little backpack I keep with me 24/7. When I leave the house, the camera's are on my back. This way when I'm out and about, I can grab one of them, throw it on a monopod and by the time it's powered up, I can start shooting. The camera is much smaller then any DSLR I've seen and with a $99- viewfinder adaptor and mic, you can see what you're shooting very clearly AND hear it as well. The whole kit fits ASSEMBLED in my backpack, battery's installed, card installed, ready to go. I always shoot in standard pro res unless it's a paid gig, then I shoot raw or HQ depending on how much money I'm getting. I get home from shooting and in a few minutes I'm watching the material, maybe dropping it directly into my editor and cutting something in ten or twenty minutes. No post workflow necessary, just drag and drop. Plus, you don't need fast storage OR lots of storage either. 4k material is astronomically large and unwieldy to deal with. 

 

Needless to say, I've spent two decades shooting ENG (news gathering) cinema (S8/16mm/35mm) and High Definition (5DMKII, 7D, Dalsa, F900, F55, RED ONE, BMC…) and I wouldn't think for a second about owning anything else BUT the pocket camera's in today's market. You will never need something better for personal shooting and if you're doing a paid project, talk the client into using your cameras OR budget for a body rental since you'll be buying standard Canon or Nikon mount glass for the MTF pocket camera. I've used my glass on 4k shoots no problem, stuff looks great! :)


Edited by Tyler Purcell, 13 March 2015 - 01:54 PM.

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#11 Max Johic

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Posted 13 March 2015 - 01:56 PM

From what you're asking,  I actually would go with Blackmagic, but not the 4K, the Pocket with a Metaboones EF Speedbooster.

 

I recently shot with it, and out of the box it felt so much better than a 5D. more like a cinema camera.

It's shoots 10 bit, 4:2:2 in Prores HQ and also shoots RAW 12bit, which is prefect for you to play with the colour in post. it also got more dynamic range or at least the same as RED from what I saw, defiantly in RAW it's the same, but highlight rolloff is nicer on BMPCC.  

 

Also, it got MFT mount, so if you feel like from time to time you want to go super16, it opens up a huge options for other lens mounts adapters and lenses. 

 

BUT, just as a note, I would wait with buying a camera after NAB which is only a month away. 

would you know if  mft mount will work with yahsica lenses but what i need is the adapter?


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#12 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 13 March 2015 - 02:24 PM

It will; though I'm not 100% on the adapter needed, I am pretty sure this fits the bill:

 

http://www.amazon.co...s/dp/B002TSUU2Y


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#13 Oron Cohen

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Posted 13 March 2015 - 03:27 PM

would you know if  mft mount will work with yahsica lenses but what i need is the adapter?

 

I think as Adrian said, you have to use some sort of an adapter from C/Y. you could go MFT to C/Y directly if you're fine with super16 depth of field or the more expensive speedbooster EF+with C/Y to EF adapters which will give you super35 depth of field + You'll gain one stop of light in the process, which is nice bonus using a speedbooster. 


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#14 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 14 March 2015 - 03:21 AM

If you do go speed booster; don't go off brand.


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#15 Freya Black

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Posted 14 March 2015 - 11:17 AM

At this point you are best off minimising the amount of money you put into the camera. Try and save money for lenses and lighting and other stuff you can re-use once you have to change camera. Blackmagic pocket is an amazing camera where the company got a lot of things very right. I actually prefer it over all the other blackmagic cameras really, so it's a good camera if you are going cheap.

 

I have a bit of experience with the Red One and it's main advantage is that you can tell people it's a Red camera and that has a lot of brand recognition for the reasons you describe. However it is basically a cast iron cinderblock that happens to shoot video and eats power like chocolate chip cookies. Be sure to carry a ton of V-Lock batteries. To be honest I think it tends to be best in the studio where you have the option to power it off the mains. The other advantage of the RedOne is that the media is quite cheap actually. You can get a lot of footage on a 320gb red drive.

 

The other big thing you need to consider other than lenses is support. It's a big heavy camera and requires an appropriate tripod and head. Easily forgotten about but vital unless you intend to shoot everything handheld. The camera might be cheap but the tripod and V-lock batteries not so much.

 

Freya


Edited by Freya Black, 14 March 2015 - 11:18 AM.

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#16 Freya Black

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Posted 14 March 2015 - 11:19 AM

 

I think as Adrian said, you have to use some sort of an adapter from C/Y. you could go MFT to C/Y directly if you're fine with super16 depth of field or the more expensive speedbooster EF+with C/Y to EF adapters which will give you super35 depth of field + You'll gain one stop of light in the process, which is nice bonus using a speedbooster. 

 

The ideal would be to have a speed booster and a conventional adapter too so that you get two focal lengths for each lens! :)

 

Freya


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#17 Freya Black

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Posted 14 March 2015 - 11:25 AM

i have set of prime Yashica ML lenses 2.8. I

PS if i go with black magic 4k which mount do i need for Yashica lenses PL or EF

 

 

What mount are your lenses in now? You could have the lenses converted to PL I expect but I doubt it will be cheap.

If your lenses are in Contax C/Y mount then you can get a cheap dumb Adaptor to MFT mount for about £20 or less.

 

This could easily be another of those situations where it is blackmagic pocket to the rescue I suspect. :)

 

Freya


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#18 Max Johic

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Posted 14 March 2015 - 09:29 PM

Hi guys thanks for reply and help i got BMPCC ,Rokinon 14mm (39mm equiv.) T3.1 for  950 i think good deal question should i get speed boster for my yashica lense its a bit expensive but i cant find one for my lenses do they make speedboster for my lenses? and is there cheaper version of what speed booster does i really don't need electronic since my lenses are manual

 

Ps how big would my sensor size be with speedboster?

 

Thanks


Edited by Max Johic, 14 March 2015 - 09:31 PM.

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#19 Freya Black

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Posted 17 March 2015 - 10:38 AM

Hi guys thanks for reply and help i got BMPCC ,Rokinon 14mm (39mm equiv.) T3.1 for  950 i think good deal question should i get speed boster for my yashica lense its a bit expensive but i cant find one for my lenses do they make speedboster for my lenses? and is there cheaper version of what speed booster does i really don't need electronic since my lenses are manual

 

Ps how big would my sensor size be with speedboster?

 

Thanks

 

Okay lots of questions there all at once! :)

You could buy a cheap adapter to attach your Yashica lens to the MFT mount assuming it's Contax Y/C mount (I'm still not sure what mount your lens is). These sell for about £20 or less but are just a physical adapter.

 

The Speed Booster also  gives you extra speed from your lenses so you can shoot in lower light conditions and makes your lenses act a bit more like a Super 35mm lens, so they appear wider and stuff.

 

If you have a normal cheap adapter and a speed booster then you would potentially have two focal lengths for each lens depending on the adaptor in use.

 

Freya


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#20 Albion Hockney

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Posted 17 March 2015 - 12:50 PM

I'd say get the Red. If your a young shooter and you want to learn the Red will be great.

 

It is tottaly unpractical.

You need a fast computer to transcode (so transcoding footage will be very very slow).

Its heavy and you can't just pick it up and go shoot.

Its uses a lot of media, and the batteries won't run all day with out several bricks (so you will want to be careful about how much you shoot).

 

I think its the perfect camera to learn on its like shooting film first in schools.

 

It will give you by far the best image to price point you will find and you can make high level images on it with out technical limitation (IE: you can't blame the camera)

 

 

 

That said if this is any sort of business move I would advise against. You might also want to look into the Sony F35. Even bigger and less practical, but really great images at a similar or less price point.

 

 

Almost everyone I have ever known who bought expensive cameras at a young age did well. Its a little tough with the RED MX because its now outdatted so you went get rental dollars or get hired for serious proffesional work. But, every friend will ask you to shoot there stuff because of your fancy camera...and if your good  it will look best with you anyways.


Edited by Albion Hockney, 17 March 2015 - 12:54 PM.

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