Jump to content




Photo

Black and white films stocks - what's available now?

black white stocks rollei ilford

  • Please log in to reply
38 replies to this topic

#1 anthony le grand

anthony le grand
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 80 posts
  • Director
  • france

Posted 24 March 2015 - 02:03 PM

Hi everyone,

 

I am preparing a feature film and we want to shoot black and white. Do you know guy which stocks are available in B&W except the ones made by Kodak? I'm looking for a sharp and not very grainy stock. I asked Ilford what they could do and they can offer FP4 and Pan F in 30.5m only (about 90 feet). I'm not a great fan of B&W shot in color, I generally didn't like things I've seen and tested made that way and never found the texture of true black and white. I also have to ask to Rollei/Agfa what they can do.

 

In photography I use the Rollei retro 80s a lot and it's pretty close to the look I want. I guess something close to T-Max or Ilford Delta 100 would be a good start for tests too. Do you guys have any idea where I could search (preferably in Europe)? Anyone has experience with Adox?

 

Thanks a lot,
Anthony

 


  • 0




#2 Mark Dunn

Mark Dunn
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2182 posts
  • Other
  • London

Posted 24 March 2015 - 02:06 PM

FYI Agfa went bust in 2004. Any film now bearing the name is badged with one or two exceptions.

There's also ORWO and FOMA i believe.

Film made for stills has a different perf profile.


Edited by Mark Dunn, 24 March 2015 - 02:07 PM.

  • 0

#3 Kenny N Suleimanagich

Kenny N Suleimanagich
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 843 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • New York

Posted 24 March 2015 - 02:27 PM

Orwo N74 is a high-speed 400 ASA stock, and Orwo UN54 is a low-speed 100 ASA. The latter will likely be most comparable to your favored Rollei stock. Kodak is only manufacturing Double-X and Tri-X for motion picture use these days. I have not tried/cannot speak to the Foma stocks. 


  • 0

#4 Dirk DeJonghe

Dirk DeJonghe
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 543 posts
  • Industry Rep
  • Kortrijk,Belgium

Posted 24 March 2015 - 03:48 PM

Agfaphoto went bust, the real Agfa still makes excellent color print film and B&W sound recording film in Antwerp;

The real choice is between Kodak Double-X and Orwo UN54 and N74. We processed about 60 400' rolls of 7222 in the last two weeks and it looked beautiful; There seems to be an unpublished improvement in the 7222 stock, we needed to adjust the processing slightly and the characteristic acidic smell of Double-X is no longer there.


  • 0

#5 anthony le grand

anthony le grand
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 80 posts
  • Director
  • france

Posted 24 March 2015 - 04:57 PM

Thanks very much for your answers!

 

I will check ORWO films then. Do you know films that were made with the UN54 and N74?

I wondered also about Foma but Fomapan has not exactly the look I'm after.

 

Dirk, thanks for the info for the Double-X. Isn't the new version too grainy on the big screen? It has beautiful contrast but I want to avoid grain as much as I can for this one. I remember The Turin's horse by Bela Tarr was made with the 5222. It looked gorgeous but too much grain for this project.

I actually don't understand things about Agfaphoto. It went bust 10 years ago stopping film stocks, photo papers and everything. But then there's still photography films made by Agfa and even the Rollei B&W films have the Agfa logo on them... But all their products are/were beautiful


  • 0

#6 Bill DiPietra

Bill DiPietra
  • Sustaining Members
  • 2265 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • New York City

Posted 24 March 2015 - 06:01 PM

Thanks very much for your answers!

 

I will check ORWO films then. Do you know films that were made with the UN54 and N74?

 

Plenty of people have posted their results on Youtube and Vimeo.  You can check there.


  • 0

#7 Kenny N Suleimanagich

Kenny N Suleimanagich
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 843 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • New York

Posted 24 March 2015 - 11:36 PM

When was the change in '22 made, approximately? That's very interesting. I'd love to know how it compares.

Of note: Orwo made many improvements in their stocks quality in coating and perforation in the last year or two. It used to jam many cameras. The North America rep told me many early issues have been rectified.
  • 0

#8 Dirk DeJonghe

Dirk DeJonghe
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 543 posts
  • Industry Rep
  • Kortrijk,Belgium

Posted 25 March 2015 - 02:11 AM

Agfaphoto was a spinoff of the consumer photo films only. The main Agfa still makes aerial and some MP stocks as well as medical products.

Anthony, is your project 35 or 16? Traditional or digital finish?
The trick to reduce grain in 22 is to expose it just enough, printing lights 18-22, not more.
  • 0

#9 Simon Wyss

Simon Wyss
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1143 posts
  • Other
  • Basel, Switzerland

Posted 25 March 2015 - 02:18 AM

Agfa has ceased making their two remaining MP stocks. ST 8 D and CP 30 are only conversed until used up.


  • 0

#10 aapo lettinen

aapo lettinen
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 702 posts
  • Other
  • Finland

Posted 25 March 2015 - 06:08 AM

I saw some Chinese B/W aerial stock on ebay on 60m rolls. of course it's KS perf and no idea what the tolerances would be but would be an interesting option anyway, I think at least Konvas could maybe manage with it :rolleyes:  


  • 0

#11 aapo lettinen

aapo lettinen
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 702 posts
  • Other
  • Finland

Posted 25 March 2015 - 06:09 AM

http://www.ebay.com/...649733465&rt=nc

 

found the link  :lol:


  • 0

#12 anthony le grand

anthony le grand
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 80 posts
  • Director
  • france

Posted 25 March 2015 - 09:13 AM

Yes, I checked many things on vimeo made with Orwo films, but it's always difficult to have an idea as it's not always clear what processing, equipment or telecine they used. It's often 16mm, sometimes with home-made processing or telecine... But from what I've seen I'm not really fan of the UN54.

 

Dirk, the project will be in 35mm, not sure about the finish yet. But even if we go digital we want most of the look in camera, it would be just to adjust minimal things like grain.

 

Thanks Aapo for the link, but I'm not sure it would be safe to make it with chinese stocks coming from ebay :)


  • 0

#13 aapo lettinen

aapo lettinen
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 702 posts
  • Other
  • Finland

Posted 25 March 2015 - 09:49 AM

Thanks Aapo for the link, but I'm not sure it would be safe to make it with chinese stocks coming from ebay :)

I wouldn't be either, it would require very intensive testing if one would like to use that route  :lol:

 

I believe the manufacturing tolerances may not be tight enough for motion picture use but who knows  B)  

On the other hand I can get 400ft of factory sealed clearance Fuji at about the same price than a 60m roll of that Chinese stock costs, that's why I haven't tested these "Lucky" films yet  <_<


  • 0

#14 Kenny N Suleimanagich

Kenny N Suleimanagich
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 843 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • New York

Posted 25 March 2015 - 10:00 AM

Here is an example of the Orwo stocks in 35mm, from a recent feature shot with it. 

 


  • 0

#15 Dirk DeJonghe

Dirk DeJonghe
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 543 posts
  • Industry Rep
  • Kortrijk,Belgium

Posted 25 March 2015 - 04:11 PM

Anthony,

 

If you hop on the TGV to Lille, you could look over my shoulder at a few samples of the 'new' Double-X in action. I can't post it here for obvious reasons.

We worked on the feature film 'Tzameti' shot on 5222 that won the best foreign film prize at Sundance. 'Two years at sea" won in Venice (7222).


  • 0

#16 anthony le grand

anthony le grand
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 80 posts
  • Director
  • france

Posted 26 March 2015 - 02:55 PM

Thanks for the link Kenny. It was also the best extract I have found of the UN54, but I'm not a big fan of the look of the stock from what I can see.

 

Thanks very much for you offer Dirk, that's very kind! Double-X won't be an option on this project I think, it's too grainy and we're looking for a more modern emulsion. I'll look at Foma and also see what Adox can do.


  • 0

#17 David Cunningham

David Cunningham
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 978 posts
  • Cinematographer

Posted 26 March 2015 - 05:12 PM

Unfortunately exactly what you are talking about is why "The Artsist" was shot on Vision3 color stock and then desaturated. I know you said you didn't want to do that. But those at the studio decided they could find no satisfactory alternative.
  • 0

#18 Kenny N Suleimanagich

Kenny N Suleimanagich
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 843 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • New York

Posted 26 March 2015 - 05:34 PM

"The Artist" is an especially interesting case because they were scrambling to get the last batch of Plus-X to shoot it on. 


  • 0

#19 Bill DiPietra

Bill DiPietra
  • Sustaining Members
  • 2265 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • New York City

Posted 26 March 2015 - 06:52 PM

"The Artist" is an especially interesting case because they were scrambling to get the last batch of Plus-X to shoot it on. 

 

That's the stock he would need for this film.  No question.


  • 0

#20 anthony le grand

anthony le grand
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 80 posts
  • Director
  • france

Posted 26 March 2015 - 07:32 PM

The thing is I didn't really like the look of The Artist. It's clean and elegant and with very little grain, but it's also kind of flat and it lacks the texture of true black and white. When you watch it it's clear that it's color turned into black and white.

 

Unfortunately almost all the time you feel it when it's done that way. But I think one of the film that managed to do it the best was The White Ribbon by Haneke, it looked quite good I think


  • 0



Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: black, white, stocks, rollei, ilford

CineTape

CineLab

Rig Wheels Passport

Zylight

The Slider

Tai Audio

rebotnix Technologies

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Abel Cine

Ritter Battery

Glidecam

Technodolly

Visual Products

Aerial Filmworks

Willys Widgets

Pro 8mm

Paralinx LLC

Aerial Filmworks

Zylight

CineTape

Willys Widgets

Technodolly

Rig Wheels Passport

Abel Cine

The Slider

Ritter Battery

Glidecam

Paralinx LLC

rebotnix Technologies

Broadcast Solutions Inc

CineLab

Pro 8mm

Visual Products

Tai Audio