Jump to content


Photo

What are your suggestions ?


  • Please log in to reply
27 replies to this topic

#1 Dominik Muench

Dominik Muench
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 443 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Brisbane

Posted 15 May 2005 - 11:06 PM

Hi,

i have following task to fullfill, shooting 100 feet of kodak black and white reversal film as creatively as possible, i can do any special processing i want.
equipment wise i do have a arri sr2 super 16mm with a set of zeiss primes. lights are basically tungstens, a couple of redheads, blondies and lowell dp lights.

i would like to do something really unusual processing wise, however im not very experienced with special processing techniques. does anyone have any suggestions ?

thanks.
  • 0

#2 David Mullen ASC

David Mullen ASC
  • Sustaining Members
  • 19769 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles

Posted 15 May 2005 - 11:50 PM

There's not many unusual things you can do with b&w since there isn't color to make into weirder colors, or more pastel colors, or more intense colors using processing tricks.

With b&w, you can do things that will increase the graininess and contrast, that's about it. There are fewer ways of making the image look "wrong" since color is not a factor.

Otherwise, you can use diffusion filters, color-contrast filters, etc. You can also print it onto color stock with a tint, or color tint it in a video transfer.

For example, I've used push-processing, a heavy fog filter and heavy red filter outdoors for a fake infrared film look.
  • 0

#3 Dominik Muench

Dominik Muench
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 443 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Brisbane

Posted 16 May 2005 - 12:37 AM

uh yes an infared look would be amazing, is it possible to get infared filters for motion picture cameras ? if not, just a red filter and a fog filter in the matbox ?
  • 0

#4 David Mullen ASC

David Mullen ASC
  • Sustaining Members
  • 19769 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles

Posted 16 May 2005 - 01:21 AM

Well, an infrared filter is sort of a really, really, really heavy red filter, but since you aren't shooting real infrared film, you wouldn't get much exposure if you used a real infrared filter. There is a semi infrared b&w negative that Ilford makes but I think they got out of the motion picture business. Of course, Kodak makes real infrared b&w film.

Using regular film, push-processed for more grain & contrast, plus a red filter to increase contrast outdoors and darken the sky, plus a heavy fog (or ProMist) filter to increase halation and softness, will give you a fake infrared look but of course, you won't get glowing green plants, etc. like with real infrared photography.
  • 0

#5 Dominik Muench

Dominik Muench
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 443 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Brisbane

Posted 16 May 2005 - 01:30 AM

great thank you very much, i think i give that a try :) should be interesting, if i can get those filters from panavision.
  • 0

#6 Freya Black

Freya Black
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 4161 posts
  • Other
  • Went over the edge... Central Europe

Posted 16 May 2005 - 07:38 AM

great thank you very much, i think i give that a try :) should be interesting, if i can get those filters from panavision.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I guess you could try solarising the film?

love

Freya
  • 0

#7 Tim J Durham

Tim J Durham
  • Sustaining Members
  • 742 posts
  • Director
  • East Coast, Baby!

Posted 16 May 2005 - 08:01 AM

Hi,

i have following task to fullfill, shooting 100 feet of kodak black and white reversal film as creatively as possible, i can do any special processing i want.
equipment wise i do have a arri sr2 super 16mm with a set of zeiss primes. lights are basically tungstens, a couple of redheads, blondies and lowell dp lights.

i would like to do something really unusual processing wise, however im not very experienced with special processing techniques. does anyone have any suggestions ?

thanks.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I'm not a film guy but I spent many years in the darkroom doing photographic printing and one of my favourite effects was to use a diffusion filter when printing to make the blacks bleed, as opposed to using the diffusion on the camera lens to make the highlights bleed.

I've never seen anyone do this on a film so I don't know if it can be done, but it IS a very cool effect. I'd be very interested to know if/how it could be done with motion film. I might even consider learning S16mm just for that effect.
  • 0

#8 Dominic Case

Dominic Case
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1357 posts
  • Other
  • Sydney Australia

Posted 16 May 2005 - 08:17 AM

Colour filters can give you quite strange looks. They lighten the colour of the filter and darken the complementary colour - so a red filter would give very dark skies and foliage (exteriors of course) and pale skin tones. A green filter will give very pale foliage and fairly dark skies.

AS you say you have to shoot b/w reversal, I guess this is an exercise with no budget - ie you will project the original - am I right? So no fancy printing.

How will you process the reversal film?

*******************
Dominic Case
Atlab Australia
*******************
  • 0

#9 John Pytlak RIP

John Pytlak RIP

    (deceased)

  • Sustaining Members
  • 3499 posts
  • Industry Rep
  • Rochester, NY 14650-1922

Posted 16 May 2005 - 10:39 AM

Here is the technical data for the Kodak B&W reversal films and process:

http://www.kodak.com...1.4.4.8.8&lc=en

http://www.kodak.com....4.4.8.10&lc=en

http://www.kodak.com....4.4.8.16&lc=en

Here's a discussion of filtration for B&W films:

http://www.kodak.com...ilterP.shtml#bw
  • 0

#10 Dominik Muench

Dominik Muench
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 443 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Brisbane

Posted 16 May 2005 - 05:25 PM

freya: solarisation ? you mean like a negative effect ?

dominic: yes i cant do any special printing, only processing, i do however have a telecince session since the endresult will be screened on DVCam, so aslast resort i do have a color correction option :)
processing wise i think i go for a normal process when i overexpose the stock evenly by half a stop, to get really deep and rich blacks.


John: thanks for that, that was really helpfull.
  • 0

#11 Sam Wells

Sam Wells
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1751 posts
  • Cinematographer

Posted 16 May 2005 - 06:48 PM

processing wise i think i go for a normal process when i overexpose the stock evenly by half a stop, to get really deep and rich blacks.
John: thanks for that, that was really helpfull.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


No No ! It does not act like a color negative does. Overexposing 1/2 stop will give you something that looks 1/2 stop overexposed. Strange but true :)

-Sam
  • 0

#12 David Mullen ASC

David Mullen ASC
  • Sustaining Members
  • 19769 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles

Posted 16 May 2005 - 07:40 PM

No No ! It does not act like a color negative does. Overexposing 1/2 stop will give you something that looks 1/2 stop overexposed. Strange but true  :)

-Sam

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Especially for b&w reversal, where the blacks are plenty rich already, but if anything, underexposure makes them richer, not overexposure. With b&w in general, if I want more contrast, I'd more likely use a slower-speed stock and push-process it, like use Plus-X and push one stop. But b&w reversal has PLENTY of contrast.

And the only way to make direct prints is onto b&w reversal again, which doubles the contrast.
  • 0

#13 Dominik Muench

Dominik Muench
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 443 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Brisbane

Posted 16 May 2005 - 11:22 PM

oh ok, learned something new today. thats good to know cause i would have guessed its similar to a color negative, but it makes sense that it actually behaves differently.
  • 0

#14 Dominik Muench

Dominik Muench
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 443 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Brisbane

Posted 17 May 2005 - 06:08 AM

so another question would be, if that black and white stock is so contrasty, i guess it only has a very small exposure latitude and i have to be very carefull with my lighting ?

timJBD: do you have any examples of that effect ?

Edited by Dmuench, 17 May 2005 - 06:09 AM.

  • 0

#15 Tim J Durham

Tim J Durham
  • Sustaining Members
  • 742 posts
  • Director
  • East Coast, Baby!

Posted 17 May 2005 - 06:45 AM

so another question would be, if that black and white stock is so contrasty, i guess it only has a very small exposure latitude and i have to be very carefull with my lighting ?

timJBD: do you have any examples of that effect ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Here's a Ray Carafano print done that way, although a little too overdone you can still get an idea of the effect:

http://www.carofano....id=3405&entry=y

trying...to...attach...%*&##* photo...not..work..ing

ImperialValleyImperial.jpg
  • 0

#16 Tim J Durham

Tim J Durham
  • Sustaining Members
  • 742 posts
  • Director
  • East Coast, Baby!

Posted 17 May 2005 - 06:59 AM

Couple more, now that I think I've got this attachment business going...

CubanStairway.jpg

BigEddie_3.jpg

Can't forget props to the photographer:

[url=http://www.carofano.com/]

Edited by TimJBD, 17 May 2005 - 07:02 AM.

  • 0

#17 Dominik Muench

Dominik Muench
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 443 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Brisbane

Posted 17 May 2005 - 07:36 AM

wow thank you very much, that looks awesome, do you have any more detailed resources of how to achieve that ?
  • 0

#18 L K Keerthi Basu

L K Keerthi Basu
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 128 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • india

Posted 17 May 2005 - 10:23 AM

If you really want to play with the contrast try to shoot with PRINT films and SOUND negative. I have shot some with them ,they are really contrast. I have exposed sound negative 2378E the lighting was very critical. Mostly I exposed that in the daylight.

L.K.Keerthibasu
  • 0

#19 Tim J Durham

Tim J Durham
  • Sustaining Members
  • 742 posts
  • Director
  • East Coast, Baby!

Posted 17 May 2005 - 10:55 AM

wow thank you very much, that looks awesome, do you have any more detailed resources of how to achieve that ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, I know how to do it in a darkroom. The idea is to use your diffusion at any point in the process where the blacks become the highlights. In B&W photographic printing, you would mount the diffusion filter (Pro-mist or whatever) between the enlarger lens and the paper your printing onto.

I don't know if there is an opportunity to do this when you make a film print, but if not, I'd say you could print a negative and project that negative image onto a screen with the filter on the front of the projector lens, then shoot the projected image.

There's got to be a better way, but I don't know what it would be. I'm not familiar enough with
motion picture development.

If you DO find a better way, I'd sure be interested in knowing how you did it.
  • 0

#20 David Mullen ASC

David Mullen ASC
  • Sustaining Members
  • 19769 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles

Posted 17 May 2005 - 11:02 AM

I don't know if there is an opportunity to do this when you make a film print,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Only in an optical printer. Otherwise, you'd have to use a camera diffusion filter.

However, that type of diffusion effect is easy to achieve in digital post -- basically it's a gassian blurred layer over on a sharp image. A tricked-out DaVinci with a Color Toolbox has that feature; otherwise, you'd be doing it on some other system with diffusion tools.

You can also add diffusion inside some telecine machines for a similar effect of adding it to an enlarger. However, remember that he's shooting b&w reversal, so it's a positive image, not a negative image, so the blacks won't halate anyway except digitally.
  • 0


FJS International, LLC

Abel Cine

Aerial Filmworks

Wooden Camera

Glidecam

Metropolis Post

Paralinx LLC

Willys Widgets

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

rebotnix Technologies

Visual Products

CineTape

Opal

CineLab

Technodolly

The Slider

Ritter Battery

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

Rig Wheels Passport

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Tai Audio

Ritter Battery

Broadcast Solutions Inc

The Slider

CineTape

Opal

Metropolis Post

Visual Products

Wooden Camera

Rig Wheels Passport

Gamma Ray Digital Inc

Glidecam

Paralinx LLC

CineLab

Media Blackout - Custom Cables and AKS

FJS International, LLC

Aerial Filmworks

Abel Cine

Tai Audio

rebotnix Technologies

Technodolly

Willys Widgets