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Best match for Epic: 5D MarkII or BMPC ?

BMPC Canon 5D Red Epic

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#1 christian mann

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Posted 09 June 2015 - 12:06 PM

Hi guys,

 

we are in prepration for a short movie that will be shot on Epic and probably gonna use a B camera every now and then.

Since budget is obviously low to non excisting we are looking at the 5D Mark II and the Black Magic Pocket Camera (most likely shooting in RAW unless someone says ProRes4:2:2 matches better?!).

 

So my question is which of the two cameras would be best in terms of grading or rather when it comes to matching the footage with the main camera, the Epic?

 

Does anyone have got some experience with these these cameras?

 

Thanx!

M

 

 


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#2 Greg R Greenhaw

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Posted 09 June 2015 - 02:43 PM

I would ditch the epic and use 2 BM 4k/2k cameras. The sensor on the epic is not very good. Put you money into better lenses/ audio/lights/NDs or what ever.


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#3 Tyler Purcell

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Posted 10 June 2015 - 02:52 AM

I can't imagine shooting with RED, the post workflow is absolutely a nightmare. At least with the blackmagic cameras you retain all that dynamic range in Pro Res mode, which means you can edit right away without even applying a LUT. 

 

But to answer the question, the pocket is good enough. Sensor isn't great, but I use 'em and they work well as a B camera. 


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#4 Miguel Angel

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Posted 10 June 2015 - 06:07 AM

Hi Christian,

The Red Epic is a magnificent camera (as are all the cameras right now).

In the commercials I have worked on, before the release of the blackmagic cameras we shot on Red and Canon 5D's as b / c / crash cams for car commercials and other commercials.

When the blackmagic pocket was released we stopped shooting with 5D's and brought the blackmagic pockets on board and the post production guys made it match very well.

Just for the records, I was working on an Audi commercial last April / May and we had two Epics and 1 blackmagic pocket (that we used for some complicated riggings)

Of course, if I were you I would shoot a couple of tests with both of them to see how close your colorist can bring the two cameras.

And don't forget about the crop factor in the blackmagic pocket!

Have a good day!
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#5 Stuart Brereton

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 04:20 PM

The sensor on the epic is not very good.

 

 

I can't imagine shooting with RED, the post workflow is absolutely a nightmare. At least with the blackmagic cameras you retain all that dynamic range in Pro Res mode, which means you can edit right away without even applying a LUT. 

 

 

Have either of you actually shot with an Epic? It's a perfectly good camera, and it's images and color science are worlds apart from the Red One. I've shot 5 features on the Epic, and never once had a complaint about how the pictures look. The workflow is no worse than shooting Pro Res with a Log Gamma.


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#6 Satsuki Murashige

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 10:04 PM

Have either of you actually shot with an Epic? It's a perfectly good camera, and it's images and color science are worlds apart from the Red One. I've shot 5 features on the Epic, and never once had a complaint about how the pictures look. The workflow is no worse than shooting Pro Res with a Log Gamma.


I know, right?! The Epic/Scarlet MX produce good images and are a much better choice for narrative work than the Blackmagic cameras. They've been a workhorse for years.

When it comes to matching, obviously the Blackmagic Pocket will be sharper and have more dynamic range to work with in post. However, I personally find the color straight out of the 5D to be more pleasing, and you can shoot at much higher ISOs with less noise. The softness of the 5D is much less of an issue in long lens shots with shallow depth of field. So if you're only expecting the B Camera to pick up close-ups and inserts and you are working in low light levels, then that might be enough of a reason to go with Canon.

I recently worked on this Pinterest spot where we shot with the Epic Dragon except for the ECU iPhone and tablet inserts for which we used a stock 5D Mark 3 with a Canon 100mm f2.8 macro lens. Cuts seamlessly in 1080p in my opinion:

5D Mark 2 cameras were also used as crash cameras on 'Mad Max: Fury Road' and I thought it looked great on the big screen.
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#7 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 01:36 AM

I respectfully disagree a little bit. Of the two I'd certainly go with a BM over a RED even; as I have had both good and bad experiences on the Epic, and thus far, not much but good with most (not the 2.5K) BM cameras. the 2.5K and I just don't get along because of it's awkward sensor size.

That said, I did just finish up a big job where we tortured the hell out of an Epic or two here in NZ-- though we did have to really kludge together a dump station when the red-reader started acting up. That is a benefit, btw, I think with bm, the lack of proprietary equipment-- and that if it goes south, you can quickly get to any electronics store to get the parts needed within reason to get cards and the like working.

 

But  in the end a lot of this comes down to what you are most comfortable with it is to a high degree the DoP who makes the picture-- not the camera, and knowing any camera to work with will be easier than a shot in the dark at trying to get it to respond like another camera.


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#8 Will Montgomery

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 10:53 AM

I recently worked on this Pinterest spot where we shot with the Epic Dragon except for the ECU iPhone and tablet inserts for which we used a stock 5D Mark 3 with a Canon 100mm f2.8 macro lens. Cuts seamlessly in 1080p in my opinion:

Just have to say I love the natural color in this, especially with the girls in the car. Beautiful shots. Great job.


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#9 Satsuki Murashige

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 11:27 PM

Just have to say I love the natural color in this, especially with the girls in the car. Beautiful shots. Great job.


Hi Will,

Glad you liked it, it was a fun job. Just FYI though, I was only the 1st AC on this. The DP was Mike Gioulakis, a very talented cinematographer and good friend whom I have had the pleasure of working with for years. I don't AC much anymore these days, but I always make an exception for him and a few others. Mike also shot the recent horror film "It Follows."
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#10 christian mann

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 09:21 AM

hey guys,

 

thanks for the input so far!

 

regarding the Epic: RED is definitely not my preferred camera (ALEXA is so much nicer :) ) but it is definitely a very good camera and to my understanding way better than a BMPCC.

But since I can#t choose my A camera on this one I am stuck with the Epic...could be worse ;)

 

Anyhow, if I would use the BMPCC I would also get the metabones speedbooster since I got some canon glass. and it would have the nice side effect of super35 dof, faster lenses and no crop factor.

 

I was watching a bunch of youtube clips now comparing BMPCC and 5D and the winner seems to be the BMPCC. 

But now I also came across the Panasonic GH4......anyone got experience with it when it comes to matching footage of an Epic?


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#11 christian mann

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 09:28 AM

re. the Pinterest ad: indeed, the 5D shots match well.....

 

and would would be your choice  for a drone shot; BMPCC or GH4 ?


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#12 Will Montgomery

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 01:16 PM

This would be better as a new thread probably, but I've found that DP's coming from film and Arri cameras tend to love the Alexa, while DP's coming more from video production tend to like RED (extreme generalization, I know).

 

Colorists I deal with have no problem with either, it just comes back to how you shoot and if you know the camera.


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#13 Satsuki Murashige

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 01:39 PM

For a drone? Well, the battery lasts much longer on the GH4. But as long as you can monitor wirelessly, I think either could work. GH4 would give you the ability to shoot 4K and post stabilize a bit.

I think in terms of Alexa or Epic, it really has more to do with what is required for the project. Obviously, if you need more than 2K on-board recording for VFX, raw, or a small form factor, then until recently the Alexa was not really an option. Especially if you work in a market where specialty cameras like Alexa XT, Alexa M, and Codex recorders are not common. It's also possible to have only a digital loader instead of a DIT when working with Red raw, less so for Arriraw.
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