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New lights at NAB and Cinegear

light LED mole arri cineo

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#1 David Landau

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Posted 13 June 2015 - 03:58 PM

Hello All,

 

I finally posted my pics and favorites I saw at the NAB on my lighting website under lighting news that you all might find of interest.

 

http://www.lightingf.../lighting-news/

 

There were some really great new lights announced and some true game changers. Only time will tell what lasts. But they are all great new tools for those of us that paint with light.


Edited by David Landau, 13 June 2015 - 03:58 PM.

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#2 JD Hartman

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Posted 14 June 2015 - 07:07 AM

5k LED very interesting.


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#3 JD Hartman

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Posted 14 June 2015 - 08:21 AM

Death of Tungsten lights?  Sad...

 

"LED EGT lamp replacement. For only  $750",  interesting but I won't be re-lamping my fixtures any time soon at that price.


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#4 David Landau

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Posted 14 June 2015 - 09:02 AM

Hi JD,

 

I love tungsten - the color curve and the full spectrum! Like film, its organic and that's a quality that is missing from the new digital technologies (I include LEDs in that).  But there seems to be a recent rush to lower wattage and cooler fixtures that can make production move faster and easier. They are all aware that less power means less cable and fewer needs for generators or tie-ins and less heat means a more comfortable set for actors and directors and less air conditioning worries.  Mole and Cineo seem to be in the forefront of keeping as true to tungsten as possible. Its a changing world - Kodak will attest o that.


Edited by David Landau, 14 June 2015 - 09:03 AM.

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#5 JD Hartman

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Posted 14 June 2015 - 10:17 AM

I can certainly see the advantages of a low power consumption daylight 5K or 10k.  Running on house power would open up possibilities on shoots where renting a 250A (or larger) generator and distro are just not in the budget.


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#6 Brian Drysdale

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Posted 14 June 2015 - 06:23 PM

Is this LED offering the same Light output as a 5000K HMI or a 5000k Tungsten with a CTB or the same as a 5000k Tungsten (but Daylight)?


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#7 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 14 June 2015 - 06:57 PM

900 watts would, on a very good day, be a similar output to a 5K tungsten. LED and HMI have roughly the same efficiency. LEDs claiming efficiency significantly in excess of HMI are likely to have very poor colour performance.

 

Which does rather call the purpose of LED into question, unless it's cheaper than HMI. Which it often isn't, so the point remains.

 

P


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#8 Bill DiPietra

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Posted 14 June 2015 - 07:58 PM

I get a kick out of how everyone talks about all these new technologies being the death of the old ones when they simply aren't affordable for many people.  And I'm talking about owning equipment.  It's as if a student or indie filmmaker can call up ARRI and order an Alexa for next to nothing and then walk into B&H and pick up all the LED lighting he/she needs.  That just isn't realistic.

 

All of this stuff is marketed for the industry.  Sure, studios and even small production companies might have their eyes on some of this stuff for purchases in the near future.  But when the old technologies get phased out - at least nowadays - people tend to forget the large group of indie filmmakers who are effectively priced out of the market.  You wind up with a "have & have-not" syndrome: you're either shooting on an Alexa or a Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera.  There is no middle anymore.


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#9 David Landau

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Posted 14 June 2015 - 08:25 PM

To address Brian, Its offering the same output as a 5k tungsten but in daylight color temp and with a very good color spectrum.  HMI's produce higher lumens per watt than tungsten units do. So this is not equal to a 5k HMI. More like between a 1,200 and a 2,500w not equal to a 4k HMI.  But it is lighter in weight and easier to use - no ballast, less power and virtually no heat.

 

To address Bill's concerns - I shoot low budget and corp video and I have been able to use LED lights often.  I rent them. To buy them it is expensive. But just like cameras, the prices will come down.  Shadowstone lighting was just selling off their used 1x1 litepanels  at a third their new cost. I just got a Cineo matchbox remote phosphor light, which sells for $500.  That's the price of a source 4. Its great and extremely useful.  And those new LED tubes from RST are very reasonable at around $150 each! I have't tested them, so they are an unknown but are promising. You can't get good quality for no money.  That's true in all products - shoes, cars, phones, food - even cameramen.  The market will adjust the prices as the technologies improve and the industry changes towards these new units. Kinoflos are very expensive. Floulighs aren't.  Kinoflos have a greater output, are more reliable and have better color, so they cost more. But they don't rent for a lot. no one rents Floulights. 

 

As far as cameras  - the Sony F3 is a great camera and very affordable now. Its price has dropped since they introduced the F5 and the F55. There are a number of very good high quality midrange digital cinema cameras between the Alexa and the Blackmagic pocket camera. I shot a feature with two Sony FS100 cameras and Nikon prime lenses.  It looked very nice and I shot a feature with two F3s and it looks the same as any other digital cinema camera.  Its not the box as much as its the lenses and the lighting that you put in front of it.


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#10 Michael LaVoie

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Posted 14 June 2015 - 10:13 PM

 You wind up with a "have & have-not" syndrome: you're either shooting on an Alexa or a Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera.  There is no middle anymore.

Sony finally addressed the "middle ground" with the FS7.  There are a lot of haters on it but I think it's awesome.  F55 sensor at a 1/4 of the price.   Granted, most of the shoots I'm offered don't want it but I got one anyway mostly for my own productions and for projects where they can't afford an Alexa or Red camera.  The native 2000 ISO is incredible and you can use Kino Divas as if they were 4x4's.  You get so much output from smaller fixtures.  It's great.  You just need to provide lots of aspirin for your 1st A.C.'s menu induced headaches.  Small price.

 

I remember the days of using lens adaptors and rating everything at 200ASA.   You needed big HMI's for everything.  It was awful.   I rate the FS7 at 800 and usually get away with a very small G&E package.    


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#11 Bill DiPietra

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 01:33 AM

What does the FS7 go for?...
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#12 Mihnea Snooker

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 05:48 AM

im sorry im a little bit offtopic, but David Landau said something about kino diva vs flolight. Cant you just use kino tubes in a flolight fixture? I never tried, but why not?


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#13 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 06:01 AM

Kino tubes may be somewhat underdriven in fittings not expressly intended for them, which affects colorimetry. Better (and cheaper) to get stuff from the Philips Master TL-D range.

 

 

 

What does the FS7 go for?...

 

A lot less than things it's considerably better than, but in general I take Bill's position on this. I'm not sure what it isn't usually possible to rent non-Arri HMIs, or non-Kino fluorescents. But it isn't.

 

There is also considerable merit in the idea that some, perhaps many, new products which are more or less irrelevant to anyone outside the high end and therefore just not that exciting. When people refer to "mainstream filmmaking" they're invariably referring to big-budget American TV drama and features, which, by proportion of actual frames shot, is far, far from the majority of the work that's actually being done.

 

P


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#14 Mihnea Snooker

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 06:13 AM

Thanks!

Kino tubes may be somewhat underdriven in fittings not expressly intended for them, which affects colorimetry. Better (and cheaper) to get stuff from the Philips Master TL-D range.


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#15 John E Clark

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 01:53 PM

 You wind up with a "have & have-not" syndrome: you're either shooting on an Alexa or a Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera.  There is no middle anymore.

 

Well, this is not limited to lights and cameras... I can't afford an 'energy' efficient car at $30K prices... I buy an old car that may cost more in terms of gas, may produce more pollution... but I can still afford to drive it.

 

But even if a 5k tungsten were on the bargain rate shelf... I still couldn't afford to run it anyway... I suspect 1K tungstens are going to continue to be popular despite advances at the high end for low power consumption...


Edited by John E Clark, 15 June 2015 - 01:53 PM.

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#16 Mark Kenfield

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 11:34 PM

The 5k Tungsten equivalent LED fresnel from Mole is extremely interesting. That's starting to get up there with seriously usable output (and you could run two of them off a single household socket! ...here in 240v land at least). If they can come out with a 10k equivalent model (ideally in not too much bigger a fixture) that'd be incredible - fire them through windows, dim them as required. Lighting big spaces and fighting daylight finally starts to become manageable when you don't have access to a proper gennie. An M18 kinda does this at the moment for daylight balanced output, but to have an LED option would be great - the solid state nature of the fixtures and the dimming capabilities are just too nice to pass up.


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#17 Robin R Probyn

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Posted 16 June 2015 - 08:03 AM

Bill 

 

FS7 $7,999 on B&H.. body and VF.. the best bang for the buck by far.. its actually the same sensor as the F5 not the F55.. but thats still pretty good.. 14 stop DR in Slog at native ISO 2000.. internal 4k..  180 fps (I think or close to that) cheaper and way better than C300 II.. or a bit more you have the F5.. PL mount.. side LCD.. both these camera,s are very good mid range camera,s.. 


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#18 Guy Holt

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Posted 20 June 2015 - 09:08 AM


I get a kick out of how everyone talks about all these new technologies being the death of the old ones when they simply aren't affordable for many people...  Sure, studios and even small production companies might have their eyes on some of this stuff for purchase (but) people tend to forget the large group of indie filmmakers who are effectively priced out of the market.  

 

Now-a-days you can buy on ebay LTM HMIs that will blow the latest LED technology away and at a fraction of the cost. Which is why in my white paper, “Portable Generators in Motion Picture Production” (available online), I make a point to cover “out dated” technologies like magnetic HMI ballasts, that IMO offer greater value to indie filmmakers than the latest HMIs. If you don’t have access to the newest Power Factor Corrected (PFC) electronic HMI ballasts, you are better served IMO by using the older magnetic ballasts on an inverter generator (like the Honda EU6500is) over non-PFC electronic ballasts on conventional AVR generators (like the Honda EX5500 or ES6500) with crystal governors. Where this is contrary to the conventional wisdom, I explain in my white paper some of the advantages to operating magnetic ballasts on inverter generators.

 

BoxBookLinkGenSetFP.jpg

 

The white paper is cited in the 4th Edition of Harry Box's "Set Lighting Technician's Handbook" and featured on the companion website

"Box Book Extras."  Of the article Harry Box exclaims: 

 

"Great work!... this is the kind of thing I think very few technician's ever get to see, and as a result many people have absolutely no idea why things stop working."

 

"Following the prescriptions contained in this article enables the operation of bigger lights, or more smaller lights, on portable generators than has ever been possible before."

 

The article is available online at http://www.screenlig...generators.html.

 

Guy Holt

ScreenLight & Grip

Lighting Rentals & Sales in Boston


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#19 David Landau

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Posted 20 June 2015 - 09:31 AM

As a gaffer who worked wit the first LTM HMIs ever, I will NEVER use them again. Two people were killed by their voltage leaks in the 80s. I'd been shocked many times by their terrible construction. They are overly heavy and poorly designed. They were the first on the market, but quickly overshadowed by the Arri HMIs and the Silver Bullets.  You are playing a dangerous game of Russian roulette if you buy old used LTMs.  HMI's still require generators and the LEDs don't. - thus LEDS are less expensive since you don't need to buy or rent a generator.


Edited by David Landau, 20 June 2015 - 09:36 AM.

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#20 Guy Holt

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Posted 20 June 2015 - 04:58 PM

HMI's still require generators and the LEDs don't. - thus LEDS are less expensive since you don't need to buy or rent a generator.

 

This is a bit of an overgeneralization. Any HMI with an output comparable to that of a LED can also be plugged into a wall outlet and does not require a generator.  For example, on their website Mole states that the daylight version of their 900W Senior LED, possibly the brightest LED on the market, has an output comparable to a 1200W HMI Fresnel.  A 1200W HMI with magnetic ballast will draw about 13A at 120V and so can safely be plugged into a wall outlet. The real difference between HMIs and LEDs is that the largest HMI you can plug into a wall receptacle (a 4k) will put out 4x the output of the Mole 900W Senior LED. 

 

As a gaffer who worked wit the first LTM HMIs ever, I will NEVER use them again. Two people were killed by their voltage leaks in the 80s. I'd been shocked many times by their terrible construction. They are overly heavy and poorly designed. They were the first on the market, but quickly overshadowed by the Arri HMIs and the Silver Bullets.  You are playing a dangerous game of Russian roulette if you buy old used LTMs. 

 

I guess you don’t like the LTM heads even though they were, until the introduction of the focusable Arri 1200 Par Plus, the predominant line of HMIs. They were lighter and more compact than the Arri heads at that time. Their ballasts were lighter and more compact than the Arri ballasts.  They used superior cable for their head cables, which led to less trouble on location.  And, they were robustly built to withstand the rigors of rental house use.  What I particularly like about the LTM heads is that they can easily be rewired to use the latest power factor corrected electronic ballasts from Power Gems, Power-to-Light, or even Arri.  A Mole 900W Senior LED costs about $4,500.  You can pick up a used LTM 1200W Fresnel with magnetic ballast for roughly a $1,000. The LTM 1200 Fresnel will be more compact and lighter and give you years of service, which is why IMO used HMIs with magnetic ballasts are the better value for indie filmmakers who want to own.  They also rent for a lot less than do  comparably sized LEDs.

 

Guy Holt

ScreenLight & Grip

Lighting Rentals & Sales in Boston


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