Jump to content


Photo

To Push or Pull? Vision3 Question

push processing pull processing vision3 kodak film 16mm help question overexposed 500t

  • Please log in to reply
36 replies to this topic

#1 Luke Roberts

Luke Roberts
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 20 posts
  • Director
  • Akron

Posted 13 July 2015 - 12:44 AM

I shot a short roll of Kodak 500T (16mm). Upon finishing I noticed, much to my dismay, that the ISO on my light meter was set to 50. So, the fast film's exposure index is rated at 500T and I overexposed by how many stops? Can either push or pull (pull, right?) processing save this spool? The negative is probably pretty dense too, right? I saw a latitude test where film was overexposed by 5+ stops and it looked nice. Hoping there's a way to remedy this problem.


Edited by Luke Roberts, 13 July 2015 - 12:44 AM.

  • 0




#2 David Mullen ASC

David Mullen ASC
  • Sustaining Members
  • 18986 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles

Posted 13 July 2015 - 01:06 AM

You overexposed by 3 and 1/3 stops, which is savable assuming you exposed correctly for 50 ASA and didn't overexpose on top of the overall overexposure.  You may have some loss of detail in very light-toned objects though, hot highlights, etc.

 

You could have it pull-processed by 2-stops if you want, that would make the negative closer to normal density.  Trouble is that a lot of 16mm labs don't offer pull-processing, just push-processing, but these days with all film processing being somewhat special, maybe the lab would be OK with pull-processing it for you.  Otherwise, with normal processing, it will just be very dense -- it can be printed down, if printing, or it can be corrected in a telecine transfer, you just may see some noise in the whites.


  • 0

#3 Josh Gladstone

Josh Gladstone
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 310 posts
  • Editor
  • Hollywood

Posted 13 July 2015 - 01:18 AM

Spectra offer pull processing on 16mm film, but they have a 400' minimum. You can put your film on "standby" which means they wait for 300' other feet of film before processing the whole batch, but I can't imagine they would offer pull processing on that, since you'd probably be waiting a long time for someone else who also needed their footage pulled 2 stops as well. So if you have 400'+ of footage, that's probably the way to go, but it sounds like you probably shot 100', in which case, give them a call?

 

http://www.spectrafi...eo.com/Lab.html


  • 0

#4 Luke Roberts

Luke Roberts
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 20 posts
  • Director
  • Akron

Posted 13 July 2015 - 01:51 AM

You overexposed by 3 and 1/3 stops, which is savable assuming you exposed correctly for 50 ASA and didn't overexpose on top of the overall overexposure.  You may have some loss of detail in very light-toned objects though, hot highlights, etc.

 

You could have it pull-processed by 2-stops if you want, that would make the negative closer to normal density.  Trouble is that a lot of 16mm labs don't offer pull-processing, just push-processing, but these days with all film processing being somewhat special, maybe the lab would be OK with pull-processing it for you.  Otherwise, with normal processing, it will just be very dense -- it can be printed down, if printing, or it can be corrected in a telecine transfer, you just may see some noise in the whites.

Thank you for the quick and informative feedback! Is this how you figure out the stop differential?

...50 100 200 400 (500) (600) (700) 800...
        1+   2+   3+   1/3    2/3    3/3    4+

I'm going digital intermediate with this footage, but I'd still like to get pull-processing done if possible.
 

 

Spectra offer pull processing on 16mm film, but they have a 400' minimum. You can put your film on "standby" which means they wait for 300' other feet of film before processing the whole batch, but I can't imagine they would offer pull processing on that, since you'd probably be waiting a long time for someone else who also needed their footage pulled 2 stops as well. So if you have 400'+ of footage, that's probably the way to go, but it sounds like you probably shot 100', in which case, give them a call?

 

http://www.spectrafi...eo.com/Lab.html

 

Thanks! Yes. 100'. I've been meaning to try out Spectra, although at first I wasn't even sure if they were still in business (low-profile internet status I suppose)! I'm positive you guys have heard of this lab before; it's a great deal nearer to me than those long-standing SoCal laboratories (not that distance matters). On their processing form, you can choose Pull 2 from a drop down menu. I'm assuming that means pull-process by 2-stops?
 


  • 0

#5 Jay Young

Jay Young
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 392 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Lexington KY

Posted 13 July 2015 - 05:06 AM

I'd be interested to see the results of this!  Please post a frame grab or video link when finished.


  • 0

#6 Josh Gladstone

Josh Gladstone
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 310 posts
  • Editor
  • Hollywood

Posted 13 July 2015 - 08:54 AM

Correct about the stop differential. Each stop effectively doubles or halves the ASA.


  • 0

#7 Leon Liang

Leon Liang
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 90 posts
  • Student
  • Sydney

Posted 13 July 2015 - 08:59 AM

Between 400 and 800 ASA wouldn't the third-stops be 500 and 640?
  • 0

#8 David Mullen ASC

David Mullen ASC
  • Sustaining Members
  • 18986 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles

Posted 13 July 2015 - 10:26 AM

Yes, 400 / 500 / 640 / 800 -- Luke had "+3/3-stops" before "+4-stops" which doesn't make sense, they are the same thing.


  • 0

#9 Luke Roberts

Luke Roberts
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 20 posts
  • Director
  • Akron

Posted 13 July 2015 - 11:06 AM

I'd be interested to see the results of this!  Please post a frame grab or video link when finished.

Will do!
 

Yes, 400 / 500 / 640 / 800 -- Luke had "+3/3-stops" before "+4-stops" which doesn't make sense, they are the same thing.

No, it doesn't. But using a comma without a conjunction doesn't make sense either.


Anyhow, thanks for the clarification.


Edited by Luke Roberts, 13 July 2015 - 11:07 AM.

  • 0

#10 Luke Roberts

Luke Roberts
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 20 posts
  • Director
  • Akron

Posted 13 July 2015 - 11:47 AM

@David Mullen:

Sorry. That comment was rude of me.


Edited by Luke Roberts, 13 July 2015 - 11:49 AM.

  • 0

#11 David Mullen ASC

David Mullen ASC
  • Sustaining Members
  • 18986 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • Los Angeles

Posted 13 July 2015 - 12:03 PM

Thanks, and I'm sorry for not pointing out your math error more politely.


  • 0

#12 Josh Gladstone

Josh Gladstone
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 310 posts
  • Editor
  • Hollywood

Posted 13 July 2015 - 12:20 PM

Oops, I was only glancing at the full stops. Yes, all that everyone else said!


  • 0

#13 Bill DiPietra

Bill DiPietra
  • Sustaining Members
  • 2302 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • New York City

Posted 13 July 2015 - 07:41 PM

I believe FotoKem does pull-processing, as well.  Not sure if their minimum footage is 400' or 200', though.


  • 0

#14 Robert Houllahan

Robert Houllahan
  • Sustaining Members
  • 1525 posts
  • Industry Rep
  • Providence R.I.

Posted 14 July 2015 - 04:46 PM

We do Pull Processing at Cinelab it's just a per foot charge of $0.10/ft over the normal developing cost. Pull Processing is running the developer faster so it's fairly easy to put the Pull onto the processor at the end of a normal run and adjust the speed for it.

 

I have seen 500t intentionally overexposed 5 stops for a look.

 

With a Pull -2 and a Data scan it should be recoverable to a normal look.


  • 0

#15 Kenny N Suleimanagich

Kenny N Suleimanagich
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 880 posts
  • Cinematographer
  • New York

Posted 14 July 2015 - 04:56 PM

I recently did a +3 overexposure with a -1 pull, from Cinelab with a data scan, and it looked great. I was very happy with the results. You have a bit of space in the gamma to work with with a flat .dpx file. 


  • 0

#16 Josh Gladstone

Josh Gladstone
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 310 posts
  • Editor
  • Hollywood

Posted 14 July 2015 - 06:34 PM

@Robert: That's clever. I did always wonder how a lab could push some footage without pushing the whole batch. It all makes sense now!


  • 0

#17 Luke Roberts

Luke Roberts
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 20 posts
  • Director
  • Akron

Posted 15 July 2015 - 06:17 PM

I'm getting a data scan done. Any tips on coloring and exposure?

 

We do Pull Processing at Cinelab it's just a per foot charge of $0.10/ft over the normal developing cost. Pull Processing is running the developer faster so it's fairly easy to put the Pull onto the processor at the end of a normal run and adjust the speed for it.

 

I have seen 500t intentionally overexposed 5 stops for a look.

 

With a Pull -2 and a Data scan it should be recoverable to a normal look.

 

Thanks. Do you you have any samples or examples of Cinelab's work? Although I've already sent the film out to be processed and scanned with a Pull -2 on the aforesaid roll.
 

 

I recently did a +3 overexposure with a -1 pull, from Cinelab with a data scan, and it looked great. I was very happy with the results. You have a bit of space in the gamma to work with with a flat .dpx file. 

I wonder if ProRes 4444 will have the same amount of space?


Edited by Luke Roberts, 15 July 2015 - 06:18 PM.

  • 0

#18 Robert Houllahan

Robert Houllahan
  • Sustaining Members
  • 1525 posts
  • Industry Rep
  • Providence R.I.

Posted 16 July 2015 - 12:07 AM

I have been meaning to put up a specific scanner and demo page on the web site, as the only lab in the Northeast we are pretty busy and I haven't got to it.

 

Here is my Vimeo page and all of the film materials on my page were done at Cinelab

 

 

www.vimeo.com/lunarfilms

 

 

We don't release any clients film but it's in TV shows, Features and Ad work all over the world.


  • 0

#19 Luke Roberts

Luke Roberts
  • Basic Members
  • PipPip
  • 20 posts
  • Director
  • Akron

Posted 23 July 2015 - 01:29 PM


 

I'd be interested to see the results of this!  Please post a frame grab or video link when finished.

There you go. Everything turned out nicely. I added a bit of contrast to it.
flotsom8_zpslljfmjvq.jpg

Thanks again, David.
 

 

I have been meaning to put up a specific scanner and demo page on the web site, as the only lab in the Northeast we are pretty busy and I haven't got to it.

 

Here is my Vimeo page and all of the film materials on my page were done at Cinelab

 

 

www.vimeo.com/lunarfilms

 

 

We don't release any clients film but it's in TV shows, Features and Ad work all over the world.

Thanks for the info!


  • 2

#20 David Cunningham

David Cunningham
  • Basic Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 994 posts
  • Cinematographer

Posted 23 July 2015 - 01:37 PM

Amazing! Try getting away with that in the digital world!
  • 1



Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: push processing, pull processing, vision3, kodak film, 16mm, help, question, overexposed, 500t

rebotnix Technologies

Abel Cine

Visual Products

CineLab

FJS International, LLC

Rig Wheels Passport

Tai Audio

Metropolis Post

Glidecam

Ritter Battery

Zylight

Technodolly

The Slider

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Quantum Music Works

Paralinx LLC

CineTape

Willys Widgets

Aerial Filmworks

Pro 8mm

FJS International, LLC

Metropolis Post

Zylight

Glidecam

rebotnix Technologies

The Slider

CineTape

Rig Wheels Passport

Paralinx LLC

Tai Audio

CineLab

Aerial Filmworks

Ritter Battery

Willys Widgets

Visual Products

Technodolly

Abel Cine

Quantum Music Works

Broadcast Solutions Inc

Pro 8mm