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New Red Camera - Raven


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#1 Brian Drysdale

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 03:16 AM

Stirring on Reduser about a new lower cost camera called the Raven for $6k.

 

http://www.redsharkn...about-red-raven

 

http://www.newsshoot...ll-for-5950-us/


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#2 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 05:15 AM

Oh well, at least it's not called the Red I Have A Gun And I'm Going To Use It Yes Seriously This Isn't Just The Name Of My Camera.

 

P


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#3 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 09:39 AM

Should've gone and called it Rover.

And seriously, please, for the love of god, can we have cameras stick to some kind of imager standard. I am tired of having to figure out constantly equivalent focal lengths to something i'm used to. 


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#4 aapo lettinen

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 10:25 AM

could be easier at airport security check at least  :lol:    (Yes I have this Weapon and couple of batteries for it, and also couple of Tactical Cage parts and some Battle Tested gear in those bags. What do you mean I can't bring this Bomb Viewfinder to the plane  :lol:  )


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#5 Bill DiPietra

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 10:37 AM

Oh well, at least it's not called the Red I Have A Gun And I'm Going To Use It Yes Seriously This Isn't Just The Name Of My Camera.

 

P

 

I never understood the marketing game they played with all the sinister-sounding products.


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#6 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 10:41 AM

Or the skulls printed on them. I asked at IBC, and apparently you can have the "stealth" version, without skulls.


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#7 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 02:25 PM

Because MASCULINE GOOD VROOM SPORTSCAR ACTION BOOM!

 

Also because, I think at least, that's the demographic they originally understood the most-- given the types of customers they'd formerly cater to. Once the company launched they kept the same type of identification as a way of making themselves the "anti-establishment" the "rebel" and "outsider." Now they're generally stuck with it. Once the bees have swarmed not much will keep them from carrying on swarming.


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#8 Bill DiPietra

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 05:15 PM

Because MASCULINE GOOD VROOM SPORTSCAR ACTION BOOM!

 

Actually, I was thinking the exact same thing.  It's like advertising a Dodge Durango - the name itself creates a kind of hyper-realism, conjuring up the concept of bigger=better=more testosterone, etc., etc., etc.  And a friend of mine who scooped up a Red One as soon as it came out fits into that exact demographic.


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#9 Tyler Purcell

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 06:19 PM

I just think the whole thing his hilarious. RED digital cinema cameras don't even function without accessories. So sure, the body is $6k, but once you turn it into a working camera, it's $12 - $14k. So it's really not a good deal, it's just cheaper then the other crap... whoops... sorry "stuff" RED makes. 

 

What bothers me even more is Arri's reluctance to release a true 4k cinema camera. If they did that, they'd end this whole debate and RED wouldn't have a leg to stand on. However, because the Alexa's are all under 4k (even if only slightly), it makes those idiots who 'require' 4k for "future proofing" look towards RED as a solution. 

 

Since nobody takes Blackmagic Designs seriously, the URSA Mini is a waste of... wait a sec... URSA mini is 4.6k, CinemaDNG RAW, 12bit 444 camera that with ALL the accessories comes out to $8k. Hmm... maybe people will start taking Blackmagic Designs more seriously? 

 

RED = Fail 

URSA Mini = Maybe good? 

 

Only time will tell! Go Aussies! :) 


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#10 Oron Cohen

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 06:48 PM

I just think the whole thing his hilarious. RED digital cinema cameras don't even function without accessories. So sure, the body is $6k, but once you turn it into a working camera, it's $12 - $14k. So it's really not a good deal, it's just cheaper then the other crap... whoops... sorry "stuff" RED makes. 

 

Since nobody takes Blackmagic Designs seriously, the URSA Mini is a waste of... wait a sec... URSA mini is 4.6k, CinemaDNG RAW, 12bit 444 camera that with ALL the accessories comes out to $8k. Hmm... maybe people will start taking Blackmagic Designs more seriously? 

 

RED = Fail 

URSA Mini = Maybe good? 

 

Only time will tell! Go Aussies! :)

Tyler, 

 

I'm sorry but from your post it's not clear how many days you shot with RED cameras? 

 

I just completed another feature on an EPIC, 23 days of filming. I was very pleased with the image, the images are NOT comparable to ANY Balckmagic camera I've used, also, Blackmagic cameras are not on par regarding build quality, they are aimed for people that want to buy cameras and only care about the price.

 

I use both RED and ARRI, it depends on budget and look I'm after, I like to use both and would love more choice at the moment I see RED and ARRI like I used to view FUJI and Kodak, while obviously ARRI is Kodak and the RED is FUJI to my eyes :-)  

 

Some terrific looking stuff came out that were shot on RED, I really don't like this fan boy attitude, I really could care less about the camera, but as professional I can feel in a few minute if a camera was build for the pro market or not.

 

Just recently I've watched 'Better call saul' and 'Louie' both shot on RED and look great, also 'The Social Network' and 'Gone Girl' which I like, not to speak about 'Prometheus' and many other films which had massive budgets. 

 

For me, RED code is easy to work with this days (yes, very easy actually), I could shoot 5K up to 100FSP, the camera body is build well, small and light weight and it's got OLPF which (again) for me really help the image and cameras like BM don't have. 

 

BM cameras are a good tool as a B or C cameras at the moment, let's at least wait and see when URSA mini come out how the images look like, and no, not on VIMEO, but after me testing the camera and project it on a 2K Projector. 

 

As for the Raven, it meant to be RED answer to cheaper cameras and for people that are starting out or want a B cam for the EPIC. 

 

I personally agree with Adrian and really don't like all those games with crop factor and would prefer sticking with super35 which I feel is the perfect size for a cinema camera, but days will tell. 

 

Bare in mind, that when you're on set with 50-100 people around you and have massive pressure to deliver the best images you don't care less how much a camera cost, you just try to get the best camera you can get or/and the best camera you can afford for the project. 


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#11 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 06:57 PM

Since nobody takes Blackmagic Designs seriously, the URSA Mini is a waste of... wait a sec... URSA mini is 4.6k, CinemaDNG RAW, 12bit 444 camera that with ALL the accessories comes out to $8k. Hmm... maybe people will start taking Blackmagic Designs more seriously?

 

My thoughts precisely. The thing isn't perfect, but crikey.

 

Just bear in mind that nobody's actually seen the 4.6K sensor yet. The high dynamic range and global shutter are not likely to be available simultaneously. Sure, it may turn out to be an Alexa wearing a bush hat, but I wouldn't bet.

 

P


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#12 Tyler Purcell

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Posted 23 September 2015 - 07:58 PM

I'm sorry but from your post it's not clear how many days you shot with RED cameras?


I haven't shot much with it, but I have done a lot of editing and finishing (coloring) on RED shows.

In terms of the camera, the "modular" body design just isn't me. I come from the ENG days, so cameras like the Arri SR, Aaton Penelope, Blackmagic URSA mini, these are what I'm use to shooting with. To me, the camera form factor is critical. I also don't like the fact RED bodies have open ports and fan's, that's a complete fail. Even though the URSA mini has open ports, they're only for heat to resonate from the heat sync's and aren't direct access to the boards like the RED.

Since I mostly work with post production, I can explain my borderline hatred of what they've done.

First; their color science is still whack. The cameras natural tendency is to steer towards magenta. Yes, you can easily build a LUT in DaVinci to resolve this, but the information still isn't there. As a colorist, you're always fighting to get back that lost information.

Second; noisy blacks and contrast ratio in under-exposed dark areas in general are a huge problem. I've worked with Epic and Dragon footage recently, shot by top cinematographers and been dismayed when coloring shots with dark areas. When cinematographers don't light perfectly and some stuff is left maybe 6 stops under, bringing those areas up so they aren't completely crushed, does leave artifacts. In a lot of cases there is no data there at all, which is surprising because cameras like the 5DMKIII (B camera on that particular shoot) didn't have any issues. We wound up renting another 5DMKIII with magic lantern and shooting all the night stuff with those cameras instead of the RED.

Third; I've found pulling good key's from RED cameras, can be really challenging for no reason. I was working on children's TV series last year and it was shot entirely on green screen. We took the raw r3d files and handed them off to our artists. Within hours of the hand-off, they called us after checking one of the shots and said they'd have to roto everything by hand. For some reason, due to either the magenta hazing or bit depth issue of the RED Dragon, there simply wasn't appropriate data to pull a key. I was shocked because so may VFX film shoot with RED that I asked around. Sure enough, it only took two call's and my issue was confirmed. We wound up having to turn the project over to a special effects company who had to hand-roto all of the material. Now, it could be the compression settings (they were high), but the cinematographer was a top guy, maybe even a member of this site. The shot was perfectly lit, perfectly exposed, so yea... huge problem.

Finally and in my opinion most important... the codec. For shooters, it doesn't matter. They shoot, they hand the cards off to a DIT and that's the last thing they see of that format. However, for post production, the format is a train wreck. We're back to the day's of lab's having to take your dailies, process them and hand back lower-res files to work with. For people who can't afford lab's, you're having to convert everything. Even with fast computers, the conversion process is overwhelmingly slow and tedious. Plus, it's always a two step process; edit off-line and then go to online. Wanna turn something out quick? Good luck! For HUGE shows, this doesn't matter. For little stuff, it's a HUGE problem.

Outside of those issues, there are many others including; IR contamination, over-exposure blooms and proprietary media. When you add everything up, you can see why I dislike the camera. Sure as a cinematographer you can create beautiful shots. However, when 35mm (and Alexa) don't have any of those issues, why would anyone in their right mind shoot with RED? Cost savings? Yea sorry... it doesn't add up. In my eyes, nobody should pay more money for less quality, it just doesn't make sense.
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#13 aapo lettinen

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 05:14 AM

I hope they have got rid of the FAT filesystem, it is one of the biggest disadvantages of REDs although not such a pain in the *** than cinemadng or ML raw. I don't find any info but maybe they are at last managed to switch to UDF, I don't know :) 

 

compressed rgb formats are just mandatory in today's production environment, of course you can still use raw if you have time and resources to backup and post process it. I think about 90% of people will shoot prores444 or XQ with the Ursa Mini anyway and the raw option is mostly for special use and indie films where you are either shooting very limited amount of material or where you have unlimited time in post to tweak the material (like shooting with Epic and tweaking  every clip 2 hours in RedCine before even making previews  :lol:  )


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#14 aapo lettinen

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Posted 24 September 2015 - 05:33 AM

the REDs are generally speaking FIX-IT-IN-POST cameras, they are specifically made for people who want to use lots of time in post tweaking raw adjustments before they do anything else with the material. If compared to still photography, it's not like comparing raw still and jpeg, it's more like comparing raw still and 16bit or 32bit full resolution tiff recorded in-camera. you can do practically all the same things with the tiff if the in-camera image processing is working well. 

 

(and most cameras don't record uncompressed raw so you still get artefacts with it, for example jpeg artefacts. because of the raw-->rgb processing, the artefacts don't look like the same after processing than if shooting normal video so they don't add up in the post chain and are therefore usually manageable although can look weird and lower apparent resolution etc)

 

I think the Mini will be good camera if it'll be reliable enough (not blackmagic's speciality) and the new sensor is usable. Most cameras, especially the lower end ones like Blackmagics, have usually had serious problems with the usability and user interface so I hope their design is practical in the field   (not like FS7 for example which has bad viewfinder ergonomics, too complicated menus and not rigid enough lens mount)


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#15 Brian Drysdale

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Posted 25 September 2015 - 04:49 AM

More on the Raven:

 

http://www.redsharkn...ction/item/2917

 

http://www.red.com/red-raven


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#16 Tyler Purcell

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Posted 25 September 2015 - 01:49 PM

I just laugh at this stuff:

"Prices range from the Brain only, which is $5,950 ($500 deposit), to a full shooting package which includes Brain, Base I/O V-Lock Expander, RED Mini-Mag 120GB, 4.7” LCD, AC Power Adaptor, and DSMC2 Outrigger Handle for $9,950 ($1,000 deposit) – and delays shipping till March 2016."
 

Because an AC power adaptor is how everyone powers their cameras!?!!  :wacko:

 

I just love the 120GB Mini-Mag as well. It holds what, 15 minutes of material @ 3:1?   :huh:

 

How about that 4.7" LCD as your only viewing device?

 

What planet are these camera manufacturers on, because they're certainly not on earth. 


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#17 Keith Walters

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 09:22 PM

Since I mostly work with post production, I can explain my borderline hatred of what they've done.

First; their color science is still whack. The cameras natural tendency is to steer towards magenta. Yes, you can easily build a LUT in DaVinci to resolve this, but the information still isn't there. As a colorist, you're always fighting to get back that lost information.

 

The colours on Red cameras have been vin ordinaire from day #1.

The dye formulations required for the Bayer mask are ultra-critical; no amount of "downstream" digital processing is ever going to fix that, any more than it can give you  "natural daylight" results shooting under cheap supermarkert fluorescent tubes.

I've told Jannard  & Co on two separate occasions how they could fix this, but all I ever got was ridicule and abuse.

They still appear to be using industry standard dye colours, which are fine for CCTV and phone cameras, nowhere near good enough for serious cinematography work.

 

And how many big-time productions get shot on Red cameras? And now many on the Alexa?


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#18 Tyler Purcell

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Posted 06 October 2015 - 11:06 PM

And how many big-time productions get shot on Red cameras? And now many on the Alexa?


I believe there have been far more productions using RED then Alexa. That's mainly due to RED coming out way before Arri got their act together. It's also due to RED's incessant marketing strategy to push for resolution over color science and quality. Arri spent too much time perfecting the imager and not enough time making the system higher resolution. So it wasn't until very recently that Arri had a 4k (and now 6k) solution for digital cinema acquisition. Also, RED cameras are substantially cheaper then anything Arri makes, so more people own RED then Alexa.

I just saw "The Martian" and if you like blown out highlights and a "video" looking image, check out that film at your local 4k theater. It boggles the mind why anyone thinks that RED cinema looks good. I really think people have forgotten what a good image looks like.
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#19 aapo lettinen

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Posted 07 October 2015 - 02:35 AM

2.8K sensor on Alexa was decided to be the sweet spot at the time, Arri specifically did not want to add more resolution at the cost of light sensitivity and dynamic range. 

 

I think RED's images, at least from the MX and Dragon sensors, look reasonably good. It's the backups, post workflow and reliability where these cameras fall short compared to higher end brands like Arri. 

 

RED ideology is more towards indie productions and special occasions like vfx work. For normal productions, for example drama/comedy films, it is usually more practical to take more reliable and sturdy camera which can stand the elements and has easier post workflow. Even Sony has done this a way better even though their Slog has some glitches and the cameras have sometimes reliability problems


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#20 Robin R Probyn

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Posted 07 October 2015 - 03:21 AM

Hi Aapo

 

Just wonder..what are the Slog glitches you have found.. 

 

Thanks


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