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Asynchron Filmtransport / Sutter runing

Arri 416 / shutter offset

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#1 Philipp Kunzli

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 01:07 PM

Hey Everybody

 

I'm in preproduction for a short film, which is planed to be shoot on the Arri 416.

As I remember there is the possibility (at least on the 435) to offset the Filmtransport. Meaning that the shutter is running a-sync to the film transport. The outcome are "smeering highlights" from the Filmtransport.

 

As I recall to remember one needs an additional control device, but I'm not sure.

 

How was this technic called again? 

But much more important, is it possible to do this "trick" on a 416,

or any ideas how achieve that look?

 

Unfortunately didn't find anything in the manual...

 

THX for your support and Ideas 

 

Philipp


Edited by Philipp Kunzli, 10 December 2015 - 01:10 PM.

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#2 Kenny N Suleimanagich

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 01:39 PM

As far as I know the closest you can get to this is opening up the shutter angle. I don't think there's much else you could do. The movement is the same as that in the SR3, for what it's worth. I don't think that camera can do this, either. 


Edited by Kenny N Suleimanagich, 10 December 2015 - 01:39 PM.

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#3 Bill DiPietra

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 02:55 PM

Hey Everybody

 

I'm in preproduction for a short film, which is planed to be shoot on the Arri 416.

As I remember there is the possibility (at least on the 435) to offset the Filmtransport. Meaning that the shutter is running a-sync to the film transport.

 

I'm not familiar with either camera, but wouldn't this also decrease (at the very least) your exposure time for each frame?


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#4 Kenny N Suleimanagich

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 04:20 PM

I also don't think this is something the 435 is designed to do - likely an error that can happen with a movement that depends on coplanar magazines and a larger loop. I'm sure others can chime in on this.

You would get shutter smearing if you opened up the shutter angle severely - a notable example of this are scenes in "Saving Private Ryan".
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#5 Bill DiPietra

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 06:01 PM

You would get shutter smearing if you opened up the shutter angle severely - a notable example of this are scenes in "Saving Private Ryan".

 

And didn't Kaminski physically scratch the shutter to obtain that effect?


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#6 Charlie Peich

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 06:12 PM

Hello Phillipp!

 

You are looking for the Arri Timing Shift Box. This 'box' was primarily for 35mm cameras, 435 Advanced, 435 Xtreme and the ArriCams. The nice thing with this box, you can adjust the amount of streaking while shooting.

 

 

A description from an ArriCam brochure.

 

Timing Shift Box (TSB)

The Timing Shift Box adjusts the phase relationship of the mirror shutter to the movement. The result is that the film is exposed while being trans- ported, which creates a streaking effect. A unique feature of the Timing Shift Box is the Jitter function. It introduces a random fluctuation in the timing shift, resulting in a fluctuation of the length of the streak.

Compatibility: This box attaches directly to the Studio camera or the Remote Control Station, and can be connected to the Studio or Lite camera with the MCB Cable Adapter and the Speed Control Box Remote Cable KC-65 (3m/9ft) or KC-69 (15m/45ft), with or without the 50m/150ft Cable Drum KC-73.

The Timing Shift Box has to be removed to attach or remove the Speed Control Box from the Studio camera. If a magazine is attached in back load position to the Studio camera, the magazine has to be removed before the Timing Shift Box can be attached or removed.

Timing Shift Box, Manual Control Box and Speed Control Box can be used simultaneously.

K2.54171.0 Timing Shift Box 

 

page 32.

http://www.arrirental.com/pdf/arricam_systemguide.pdf

 

 

ARRI Time Shift Box

The Time Shifting Box is 435 Xtreme compatible accessory that alters the phase relationship of the mirror shutter to the movement, so that the film is exposed while being transported. Creating vertical streaking effects that can be adjusted from very faint to very strong, and the amount of jitter, a random fluctuation in the strength of the effect, can also be set to various degrees.

http://www.aoassocie...overview_en.pdf    (Upper right side of chart)

 

 

However, in this configuration chart of the last generation of Arri film cameras, it doesn't show the box in the 416 camera configurations. :(  That is because the 416 shutter isn't an electronically controlled/adjustable variable shutter like in the 35mm cameras. You would have to have a tech physically  un-time the shutter to get a streaking effect when shooting 16mm. Then you'd have 2 camera bodies.

http://www.musitelli...on_Overview.pdf

 

Shoot 35mm for the effects, or the entire film.

Charlie 

 

 

 

 

 


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#7 Gregg MacPherson

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 06:16 PM

You would get shutter smearing if you opened up the shutter angle severely - a notable example of this are scenes in "Saving Private Ryan".

 

Do you know what the shutter angle was,  what camera,  which scenes?

 

I remember that devastating beach landing with what looked,  from memory,  like a reduced shutter angle.  Moving objects being un-naturally sharp for the cinema.


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#8 Jeff L'Heureux

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 06:55 PM

The Omaha beach scene in Saving Private Ryan was more like a 45 degree shutter and unnaturally sharp, with little to no motion blur mostly.

 

The smear effect you want would be something more like the end portion of the first battle scene in Gladiator.  That was achieved by undercranking the camera (not sure what frame rate, maybe 12fps) panning around wildly during the shot for smear and then double printing the frames.  Still using a 180 degree shutter though.  I believe Ridley Scott mentions it on the commentary.

 

Here it is at 5:30

 


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#9 Gregg MacPherson

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 07:23 PM

Jeff,  the studio blocked us from seeing that in NZ.


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#10 Jeff L'Heureux

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 07:43 PM

Ahh, well, at any rate, that effect is in Gladiator.  Should be easy enough to get a hold of for an example of the look.  Rent it on iTunes perhaps.


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#11 Dom Jaeger

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 08:14 PM

Charlie's answer regarding the Timing Shift Box is spot on, a technician would need to physically offset the shutter timing on a 416 to get the same effect because it uses a mechanical shutter drive rather than the electrical one used in late 435s and Arricams. It's not all that hard to do, but you'd need to send it back to a tech to set it back to normal, or have 2 bodies.

On Private Ryan Kaminski had one camera body with an offset shutter timing, to recreate the effect sometimes seen in WW2 footage where the force of a nearby explosion would momentarily throw the film transport and shutter out of sync and cause highlights to smear vertically (a technique that had been used earlier in Kubrick's Full Metal Jacket). On other shots he used 45 and 90 degree shutter angles to get that crisp, staccato motion. I'm not sure if there was some undercranking utilised as well. Here's an excerpt from an ASC article about it:
https://www.theasc.c.../saving/pg3.htm

It mentions that the timing offset was masked when the shutter angle was reduced to 90 or 45 degrees, so the offset camera body could be used along with the normal bodies for those shots.
So that's possibly another option with the 416, depending on the amount of timing offset a technician introduces, the smearing effect could be removed on set by reducing the shutter angle.
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#12 Gregg MacPherson

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 08:59 PM

Lots of great stuff in that article thanks.


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#13 Charlie Peich

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 09:27 PM

Hello Dom!

 

Thank you for the kind words!

 

I believe the effect Phillipp was asking about is called 'streaking'. Here's a frame from Saving Private Ryan showing an example of streaking, one of the many in camera effects used in the opening. Created by an out of sync shutter, the hot spots streaking as the film is advanced. This effect can be achieved at any frame rate. You won't see this effect through the reflex viewfinder, only when the film is processed.

 

 

Flare-16_zpsikm3brsc.jpg

 

Charlie


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#14 Simon Wyss

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 04:40 AM

Travel ghost

 

Blendenziehen in German. Philipp, wir können uns auf Deutsch unterhalten, wenn du willst.


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#15 Philipp Kunzli

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 06:18 AM

Hello Phillipp!

 

You are looking for the Arri Timing Shift Box. This 'box' was primarily for 35mm cameras, 435 Advanced, 435 Xtreme and the ArriCams. The nice thing with this box, you can adjust the amount of streaking while shooting.

 

 

A description from an ArriCam brochure.

 

Timing Shift Box (TSB)

The Timing Shift Box adjusts the phase relationship of the mirror shutter to the movement. The result is that the film is exposed while being trans- ported, which creates a streaking effect. A unique feature of the Timing Shift Box is the Jitter function. It introduces a random fluctuation in the timing shift, resulting in a fluctuation of the length of the streak.

Compatibility: This box attaches directly to the Studio camera or the Remote Control Station, and can be connected to the Studio or Lite camera with the MCB Cable Adapter and the Speed Control Box Remote Cable KC-65 (3m/9ft) or KC-69 (15m/45ft), with or without the 50m/150ft Cable Drum KC-73.

The Timing Shift Box has to be removed to attach or remove the Speed Control Box from the Studio camera. If a magazine is attached in back load position to the Studio camera, the magazine has to be removed before the Timing Shift Box can be attached or removed.

Timing Shift Box, Manual Control Box and Speed Control Box can be used simultaneously.

K2.54171.0 Timing Shift Box 

 

page 32.

http://www.arrirental.com/pdf/arricam_systemguide.pdf

 

 

ARRI Time Shift Box

The Time Shifting Box is 435 Xtreme compatible accessory that alters the phase relationship of the mirror shutter to the movement, so that the film is exposed while being transported. Creating vertical streaking effects that can be adjusted from very faint to very strong, and the amount of jitter, a random fluctuation in the strength of the effect, can also be set to various degrees.

http://www.aoassocie...overview_en.pdf    (Upper right side of chart)

 

 

However, in this configuration chart of the last generation of Arri film cameras, it doesn't show the box in the 416 camera configurations. :(  That is because the 416 shutter isn't an electronically controlled/adjustable variable shutter like in the 35mm cameras. You would have to have a tech physically  un-time the shutter to get a streaking effect when shooting 16mm. Then you'd have 2 camera bodies.

http://www.musitelli...on_Overview.pdf

 

Shoot 35mm for the effects, or the entire film.

Charlie 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks a lot. It's exactly what I was looking for! Perfect

Unfortunately my "feeling" was right that It doesn't work on the 416... 


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#16 Philipp Kunzli

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 06:21 AM

Travel ghost

 

Blendenziehen in German. Philipp, wir können uns auf Deutsch unterhalten, wenn du willst.

Hallo Simon. 

 

Immer wieder schön auch mal auf Deutsch nachfragen zu können.

Wie Charie Pech geschrieben hat ist funktioniert es auf der 35er mit der Timeshift box welche anscheinend nicht mit der 416er korrespondiert... 

 

Vielleicht hast du ja aber noch eine andere Idee?

 

Vielen Dank.

Philipp


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#17 Philipp Kunzli

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 07:10 AM

Hello Dom!

 

Thank you for the kind words!

 

I believe the effect Phillipp was asking about is called 'streaking'. Here's a frame from Saving Private Ryan showing an example of streaking, one of the many in camera effects used in the opening. Created by an out of sync shutter, the hot spots streaking as the film is advanced. This effect can be achieved at any frame rate. You won't see this effect through the reflex viewfinder, only when the film is processed.

 

 

Flare-16_zpsikm3brsc.jpg

 

Charlie

 

Spot on! ;-)


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#18 Simon Wyss

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 08:07 AM

Philipp, let’s keep writing in English, this is an English spoken forum.

 

We can further communicate auf Deutsch via personal message system.

 

To subject, what are you expecting from a technical error as an effect? Since 1888 all camera builders took care to avoid travel ghost, repair people, projectionists. I’m having quite some trouble imagining what an audience should understand by streaking highlights. Streakers I know from the 1970s.


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#19 Bill DiPietra

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 12:15 PM

I’m having quite some trouble imagining what an audience should understand by streaking highlights.

 

Totally agree.  I never really got the thematic significance of that effect in Saving Private Ryan.  As much as I like the film, it felt like it was a neat visual technique that wasn't really rooted in any kind of subtext.


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#20 Gregg MacPherson

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 01:53 PM

Here's a frame from Saving Private Ryan showing an example of streaking, one of the many in camera effects used in the opening.

 

 

Hey Charlie,  Do you know where in time that frame is in the film?  I'd like to look closely at that at 24fps.  Just watched Private Ryan yesterday after reading this topic,  but I wasn't thinking about these effect.

 

Or anyone else?


Edited by Gregg MacPherson, 11 December 2015 - 01:54 PM.

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