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faster fps with slower shutter - REDMAG & REDCODE predicament


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#1 Gosia Zur

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Posted 26 January 2016 - 10:59 AM

Hi all,

I'm new here and this is my first post so please be gentle. I'm only learning and shooting a short very soon. I managed to secure RED one MX for this project. My base (project) frame rate is 24fps and shooting majority on 24fps.

But there is this one dream sequence I want to shoot differently. I wanted to go slightly slow motion so on higher frame rate (maybe 48, don't wanna go too slow) and wanted to enhance motion blur by slowing down the shutter. 

So my original shutter for all the 24fps stuff would be 1/48. Here's my question so... If I go up to 48fps should I leave the shutter at 1/48 or maybe even go down to 1/24 for a more dreamy look? Will it all work fine in the post? I'm assuming it should as I'm sticking to one fps/shutter/base frame rate scenario. 

 

Don't know who the editor is for this project just yet so can't pick his/her brain about this and also don't want to shoot myself in the foot by choosing wrong settings and I just end up making absolute balls out of this shot. 

 

All these questions come from the fact that we have a REDMAG module instead of the flash one so it seems like if I wanted to stick to 48fps I'd have to resort to very obscure ratio/resolution format. I wanted to shoot this short in 4.5K widescreen with REDCODE 36. When I inspect the Operation Guide it seems like there's no 48fps option there at all although the cinematographer friend of mine says it is possible at 3K 2:1. Is that true? Can the Operation Guide be wrong? That DP friend of mine says the OG is quite old and probably haven't been updated. Seems like there is such option in REDCODE 42 but that same DP says he wouldn't trust 42 cos it's not reliable enough. I trust his judgement completely. Any of you know what the story is?

 

I just want to make the most informed decision and don't want to make a mistake picking my settings that will render this shot completely unusable. I will be really grateful for any advice you guys could give me :)

 

Thanks a mil

 

Gosia

 

 

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#2 Adrian Sierkowski

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Posted 26 January 2016 - 11:10 AM

Well; I'd say firstly that 48 might be too slow-- and also you can't reall do 1/24th of a second shutter at 48fps-- The fastest shutter speed (360 degree fully open shutter) would be 1/48th at 48fps.

 

As for what's possible on the cards, I'm not sure, it's been a long while since i've touched a MX, but I would assume that you'd need to bump down to 4K at least to go 48fps, and from there it'd just be about picking the best compression you can. It is likely the guide is out of date for a camera discontinued and much updated.


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#3 Freya Black

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Posted 26 January 2016 - 11:14 AM

I'm a little confused about what media you have access to.

Do you mean you have the side SSD module and that you are shooting to Red SSD's?

Here is an up to date running time calculator from Red which I think you will find helpful:

 

http://www.red.com/t.../recording-time

 

Freya


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#4 Freya Black

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Posted 26 January 2016 - 11:22 AM

I assume you are using SSD Red Mag's in which case the calculator seems to suggest that 3K 2:1 might be closest to your aspect ratio for 48fps. i actually wouldn't worry about using RedCode 42 if you are shooting to SSD's. That might be more of a concern for Red Drives or something but the SSD Mags are the same as used on the Epic camera which has much lower rates of compression and still works fine. RedCode 42 is still heavily compressed and you might want to ease up on the compression if you are going to have to shoot 3k anyway. It does depend on what media you are using however and also if you need to save on disk space etc.

 

Freya


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#5 Gosia Zur

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Posted 26 January 2016 - 11:24 AM

Well; I'd say firstly that 48 might be too slow-- and also you can't reall do 1/24th of a second shutter at 48fps-- The fastest shutter speed (360 degree fully open shutter) would be 1/48th at 48fps.

 

As for what's possible on the cards, I'm not sure, it's been a long while since i've touched a MX, but I would assume that you'd need to bump down to 4K at least to go 48fps, and from there it'd just be about picking the best compression you can. It is likely the guide is out of date for a camera discontinued and much updated.

 

Yeah, I'd be happy with 1/48 and 48fps. Just want to be sure that 48fps is possible with this camera with my preferred settings. I'd rather stick to REDCODE 36. Don't mind slight decrease in resolution for this one scene if that gets me the effect I want. I'd be ok with 3K 2:1. 4K? Even more so :) thanks for your message! 

g.


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#6 Gosia Zur

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Posted 26 January 2016 - 11:26 AM

I assume you are using SSD Red Mag's in which case the calculator seems to suggest that 3K 2:1 might be closest to your aspect ratio for 48fps. i actually wouldn't worry about using RedCode 42 if you are shooting to SSD's. That might be more of a concern for Red Drives or something but the SSD Mags are the same as used on the Epic camera which has much lower rates of compression and still works fine. RedCode 42 is still heavily compressed and you might want to ease up on the compression if you are going to have to shoot 3k anyway. It does depend on what media you are using however and also if you need to save on disk space etc.

 

Freya

 

Yes the REDMAG (as they call it in the Operation guide) is the SSD module. Gonna have plenty of those SSD and no need to save media. This scene is gonna be quite short anyway so we don't have to worry about media consumption. Thanks for the link and your advice :)

g.


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#7 Freya Black

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Posted 26 January 2016 - 01:33 PM

Actually I think the RedMag mentioned in the guide is probably the RedRam RedMag which is a weird thing that looks like a Red Drive but is in battleship grey and only has a capacity of 128gb. This is the thing they are talking about in the booklet but it is now as rare as rockinghorse sh**. I owned one for a short time but then sold it to someone else who needed it more than me!

 

The more modern SSD redmags are a whole different thing and work on both the RedOne with the SSD side module and the Red Epic and Scarlet cameras.

 

The operation guide is very out of date.


Edited by Freya Black, 26 January 2016 - 01:34 PM.

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#8 Miguel Angel

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Posted 26 January 2016 - 05:07 PM

Welcome to the forum.

As Freya said,

Redmags are the ssd cards which are valid for Redone MX with the SSD Module and Epic and Scarlet.
Redram mags are the "bricks" which come in 128GB, 320GB and 640GB and are connected via cable to the Redone MX.

You will be able to shoot at 48FPS if you scale down your resolution to 3K (I don't remember exactly which 3K option but one of them) and scaled down the REDCODE.
You might want to know that by scaling down the resolution you are cropping the sensor so the area covered by the lenses will be different.

If I remember correctly, every time that you change the resolution you have to change the media and format the new ssd card before shooting because the Redone MX won't record two resolutions in one SSD.

Get the best compression that you can get as the Red SSD cards will allow you to get the best out of the camera, and they are way more reliable than either the CF cards or the Redram Mags.

The less compression you can get is REDCODE42 if I can remember correctly and it works really well at anytime, many tv series, movies and short-films have been shot on RC42 without any problems, every single thing I have shot with a Redone MX, I set the REDCODE on RC42 too and have had 0 problems.

Said that, my suggestion is: do some tests if you can so you learn how to change the resolution, how the images look like when they are on Redcine X and your way around the camera, which is very intuitive.

Watch out for flicker on the practicals and lamps if you have any when doing slow motion, although at 48fps everything should go smoothly.

Have a good day.
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#9 Gosia Zur

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Posted 26 January 2016 - 06:42 PM

Welcome to the forum.

As Freya said,

Redmags are the ssd cards which are valid for Redone MX with the SSD Module and Epic and Scarlet.
Redram mags are the "bricks" which come in 128GB, 320GB and 640GB and are connected via cable to the Redone MX.

You will be able to shoot at 48FPS if you scale down your resolution to 3K (I don't remember exactly which 3K option but one of them) and scaled down the REDCODE.
You might want to know that by scaling down the resolution you are cropping the sensor so the area covered by the lenses will be different.

If I remember correctly, every time that you change the resolution you have to change the media and format the new ssd card before shooting because the Redone MX won't record two resolutions in one SSD.

Get the best compression that you can get as the Red SSD cards will allow you to get the best out of the camera, and they are way more reliable than either the CF cards or the Redram Mags.

The less compression you can get is REDCODE42 if I can remember correctly and it works really well at anytime, many tv series, movies and short-films have been shot on RC42 without any problems, every single thing I have shot with a Redone MX, I set the REDCODE on RC42 too and have had 0 problems.

Said that, my suggestion is: do some tests if you can so you learn how to change the resolution, how the images look like when they are on Redcine X and your way around the camera, which is very intuitive.

Watch out for flicker on the practicals and lamps if you have any when doing slow motion, although at 48fps everything should go smoothly.

Have a good day.

 

Hey Miguel,

lovely seeing you here :) how are things with you? Keeping busy I hope?

Yeah, I think it's the Operation Guide that confused me as it seems it's not really up to date and the info I was looking for wasn't there. You guys have just confirmed pretty much what the MX owner believed to be true. It is a redone MX with the SSD module and he said I should be able to do 48fps if I scale down to 3K 2:1 which I don't mind. Will keep in mind the crop on the sensor for sure but this will not be an obstacle in this particular situation.

I've worked with the Dragon before so know my ways around it, they're very intuitive indeed. Thanks for the tip on changing the SSD before and after I switch into these new settings. Better to separate this footage anyway I suppose.

I've planned camera tests already cos there is more to that short scene than just the above so will be able to test all this and make sure it works fine before we go for it properly. 

Thanks again Miguel :) I appreciate all the advice! 

All the best,

G.


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#10 Gosia Zur

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Posted 26 January 2016 - 06:45 PM

Actually I think the RedMag mentioned in the guide is probably the RedRam RedMag which is a weird thing that looks like a Red Drive but is in battleship grey and only has a capacity of 128gb. This is the thing they are talking about in the booklet but it is now as rare as rockinghorse sh**. I owned one for a short time but then sold it to someone else who needed it more than me!

 

The more modern SSD redmags are a whole different thing and work on both the RedOne with the SSD side module and the Red Epic and Scarlet cameras.

 

The operation guide is very out of date.

 

Hi Freya,

yeah, it is the modern one for SSD. The owner has a Dragon as well and uses the same SSDs for both. Operation guide is VERY much out of date so haha that's what got me worried. Unnecessarily :)

Thanks for your reply!

G.


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#11 Freya Black

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Posted 27 January 2016 - 07:59 AM

The 8GB compact flash card is too slow to handle RedCode 42. The 16GB compact flash and the Red Drives can handle RedCode42 but you are pushing the envelope a bit especially on the 16gb compact  flash. The RedMag SSD's are the same as used on the Epric and Scarlet that can use compression rates that are so low they leave RedCode 42 in the dust, so there should be no issue shooting RedCode 42 to a RedMag SSD.


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#12 Gosia Zur

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Posted 27 January 2016 - 08:13 AM

The 8GB compact flash card is too slow to handle RedCode 42. The 16GB compact flash and the Red Drives can handle RedCode42 but you are pushing the envelope a bit especially on the 16gb compact  flash. The RedMag SSD's are the same as used on the Epric and Scarlet that can use compression rates that are so low they leave RedCode 42 in the dust, so there should be no issue shooting RedCode 42 to a RedMag SSD.

 

I'm doing tests this coming weekend so might try both RC36 and RC42 and see how it holds. Thanks a mil! :)


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