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First Eclair, which one to get?


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#1 Carl Nenzen Loven

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Posted 17 March 2016 - 10:20 AM

Hi everyone,

So I stumbled onto the winding road of Eclair in a pretty funny way.

This summer I have a film oppotunity for a classic car race, and will be able to get a press pass, and also ride with some of the drivers. Naturally I jumped at the opportunity. I wanted to shoot it digital first, but lens + cinemacamera costed me A LOT more than I can afford (3 days was around 15 000 with lenses and tripod). Hence I started looking for an alternative.

Being in filmschool my teachers suggested going back to a nimble 16mm camera, and I was first looking at the Bolex/Beaulieu alternative. But speaking to people that owned both, immidiately suggested the Eclair as a brand (also because I love to shoot on the Aaton LTR so they know my preference). Problem is that I find it a bit tricky finding out what to start looking for.

I need a 16mm camera, that can be modified to either Ultra16 or Super16 (unless it is s16 from start), variable speed control (I plan to shoot some slow motion, so 64 frames would be nice to have), and that is it I guess. I will be carrying this all by myself over the course of 3 days, along with the film so the smaller the better.

My teachers have suggested the NPR, but while searching the web we also found an ADL that looked interesting, pro/cons?

Thanks for any help I can get, even if it is just (go to this link and you silly student)

C


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#2 Tyler Purcell

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Posted 17 March 2016 - 10:29 AM

Why don't you buy an LTR if you like them? There are a couple floating around on ebay in the last few weeks.
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#3 Carl Nenzen Loven

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Posted 17 March 2016 - 11:01 AM

Why don't you buy an LTR if you like them? There are a couple floating around on ebay in the last few weeks.

 

Biggest reason is I do not have the budget for PL-mount lenses. That is a deep rabbithole of it's own. Don't get me wrong I love the idea, but it is also a tiny bit out of my price range as well.

The Eclairs I have been looking at has been between 900-2000 including the 12-120mm zoom (which would work great fo the thing I am filming this summer).

C


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#4 Mark Dunn

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Posted 17 March 2016 - 11:13 AM

So a film school doesn't have 16mm. cameras to lend out?


Edited by Mark Dunn, 17 March 2016 - 11:13 AM.

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#5 Carl Nenzen Loven

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Posted 17 March 2016 - 11:18 AM

So a film school doesn't have 16mm. cameras to lend out?

 

Not over summer break, and to a different continent (I live in SF, but shoot is in France). Not really no  :) 

C


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#6 Heikki Repo

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Posted 17 March 2016 - 02:50 PM

I have lots of good things to say about Eclair ACL (and about Kern Switars & Contax Zeiss lenses on it). Just make sure you get one with the heavy duty motor and French mags. If it's an Eclair ACL II, then it should have those. However, ACL II is also largest and heaviest ACL.

 

Anyway, if you buy from Ebay make sure to test the camera first. It might need servicing.


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#7 Kenny N Suleimanagich

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Posted 17 March 2016 - 03:02 PM

There's an LTR 54 for sale on this forum at a great price. 


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#8 Carl Nenzen Loven

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Posted 17 March 2016 - 03:07 PM

I have lots of good things to say about Eclair ACL (and about Kern Switars & Contax Zeiss lenses on it). Just make sure you get one with the heavy duty motor and French mags. If it's an Eclair ACL II, then it should have those. However, ACL II is also largest and heaviest ACL.

 

Anyway, if you buy from Ebay make sure to test the camera first. It might need servicing.

Yeah, I am expecting a normal service on whatever I am getting. Just not a major overhaul replacing a lot. Hence I want to try to save a little on the system I am getting.

 

There's an LTR 54 for sale on this forum at a great price. 

 

WHAT Where?!

Is there a for sale part I haven't found yet?


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#9 Kenny N Suleimanagich

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Posted 17 March 2016 - 03:27 PM

Here: http://www.cinematog...showtopic=70752


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#10 Heikki Repo

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Posted 17 March 2016 - 05:22 PM

I'm sure Robert has taken good care of his Aaton. Please do note though that apparently LTR needs "a bit" more expensive love regularly (~every 4 years) than ACL: http://www.cinematog...=54808&p=365256


Edited by Heikki Repo, 17 March 2016 - 05:24 PM.

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#11 Tyler Purcell

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Posted 18 March 2016 - 12:27 AM

Biggest reason is I do not have the budget for PL-mount lenses. That is a deep rabbithole of it's own. Don't get me wrong I love the idea, but it is also a tiny bit out of my price range as well.


Quite the contrary, the LTR's have Aaton mount, which allows you to use; Arri B and Nikon glass without much effort. Those two mount types equates to cheap/low-cost glass.

I also have a film school in Los Angeles and a brilliant LTR kit that I will gladly ship to you for your film to save you some money.
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#12 Carl Nenzen Loven

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Posted 18 March 2016 - 12:34 AM

Quite the contrary, the LTR's have Aaton mount, which allows you to use; Arri B and Nikon glass without much effort. Those two mount types equates to cheap/low-cost glass.

I also have a film school in Los Angeles and a brilliant LTR kit that I will gladly ship to you for your film to save you some money.


This is a tempting offer. But shoot is in France, and I will be in Europe for two months (originally from Sweden), so renting there was an option until I found it really hard to find a kit.

And renting me it for 2 plus months to another continent isnt that much of an option ;)
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#13 Tyler Purcell

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Posted 18 March 2016 - 01:48 AM

Got ya, makes sense! I saw "San Francisco" and didn't realize you were going back to Europe! :)

Work out something with Robert on his package, it's a KILLER deal!
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#14 Carl Nenzen Loven

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Posted 18 March 2016 - 02:40 AM

Got ya, makes sense! I saw "San Francisco" and didn't realize you were going back to Europe! :)

Work out something with Robert on his package, it's a KILLER deal!


Yeah the shoot is in France. But I am coming back here after :)

Trust me I am dipping in to every savings account I have to try to afford it. As you know film school students are not famous for their unlimited budgets ;)
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#15 Gregg MacPherson

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Posted 18 March 2016 - 03:38 AM

There was a guy in France who had a small studio and business renting Eclair, Aaton, and stocking Eclair parts. But he just sold his Eclair parts stock, and I can't fiind his website.

His email. "gerard galle" <abc.gerard@cegetel.net>
Website...http://www.art-medias.com

As a student, what about you reach out to film schools in France, see if you can do a student "co-pro", rent their gear cheap, give a couple of French students something to do on the project......Perhaps your Proff' or project supervisor could help set that up. It would be a very cool thing to do, giving a precedent and perhaps template for other projects.
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#16 Volker Bendt

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Posted 18 March 2016 - 04:23 PM

Hi Carl,

 

The following set is for sale::

 

 

1.)  Eclair ACL1,5, Super16 conversion by Les Bosher.

     This is my backup camera besides my ACL 2 Super16, which I will keep.

      It's a light weight set up with small motor 25 f/s, small finder, on bord battery, handle.

      Two 200ft. and one or two 400ft. mags included.

      Interchangeable lens mount, comes with cameflex and Arri standard and bayonet adapter.

      Weight: Body, 200ft mag. motor, finder  3,6 kg only,

      I used it mainly hand held, comfortable on your shoulder.

      Ready to shoot.    Asked price 900 Euro.

      There are more parts available, camera could be upgraded with heavy duty motor 8-75 f/s

      and fully rotatable Angenieux finder.

 

2.)  ACL 2,  R16, latest model, heavy duty motor 8-75 f/s  and fully rotatable Angenieux finder.

      Cameflex and Arri standard and bayonet mount adapter.

      battery, handle, two 200ft. and one or twoo 400ft. mags included.

      Ready to shoot.      Asked price 700 Euro.

 

3.)  Angenieux  Zoom 1,6-2,2 /  9,5-57mm

 

4.)  Canon Zoom T 2,1 / 7-56mm

 

I'm located in Kiel, Germany (ferry port for Göteborg / Sweden).

 

If you are interested, I could email  pics.

 

Cheers,

Volker

volker.bendt@web.de


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#17 Perry Paolantonio

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Posted 19 March 2016 - 01:30 PM

Another vote for the ACL here. It's more comfortable than the NPR for handheld, as it's essentially a kind of prototype for what Aaton would eventually make (same engineers). Ergonomically speaking, it's a very similar design, meant to be comfortable on the shoulder. Quick-release mags, and the lens mounts are super flexible. C-mount is built in, and there's a larger screw-ring around that for holding a variety of adapters for PL, Arri, Cannon, Nikon, Arri B. It's quiet and they can be had quite cheaply. They seem to sell for under $2000 fairly regularly, usually with a case and a few mags. You definitely want an ACL II or a "1.5" (which is basically an ACL 1 with a heavy-duty motor and a couple other minor features - important since you can pull a 400' reel with that motor). Get French-made mags if you can. they're better. 

 

Super 16 is nice, but in my opinion a little overrated these days. Since *most* people are not blowing up to 35mm anymore, and because modern film stocks and scanners are so much better what was available 20, 30 years ago, you can shoot on a normal 16mm camera and still get a widescreen scan that looks great. You're not gaining a whole lot from that extra bit of real estate on the film (you're getting something, just not enough to be worth it, IMHO), like you were when you needed to avoid golfball sized grain on a blowup. Super16 cameras are more expensive, but more importantly, everyone wants the lenses for their digital cameras so the market for good used glass is kind of ridiculous right now. 


Edited by Perry Paolantonio, 19 March 2016 - 01:33 PM.

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#18 Gregg MacPherson

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Posted 19 March 2016 - 09:47 PM

So, accepting that the thread title may be misleading..an Aaton may be the camera you want anyway.. These thoughts, similar to what is already offered...

An ACL of any sort would be very handy in a tight spot with 200' mags. That would be my choice if I was doing a ride along in a vintage racecar with the camera jamed under my armpit or down in the passenger footwell. You can have a basic video tap for framing which may help.

A Beaulieu R16 is a nice tiny camera which allows more extreme versions of the same thing. But no video tap. Hard to clean the gate on an R16 by the way.

Choosing between ACLs. An old ACL I version that is well maintained is fine with English 400' mags. On proviso that the mags are maintained. Like that, it is a very light, nimble camera. But the original motors were sync speed only. Add the heavier multispeed motor, better view finder, video tap and monitor, ergonomic handle...and the weight goes up.

An ACL with 200' mags is much smaller than an Aaton. It's more like an Aminima. Without the cost and without the A/B wind agony.

As has been said. All ACLs have a camera lens port system that allows almost any lens if you have the right camera mount adapter. And it's all cheap now, used.

Of course, Aaton has better ergonomics on the shoulder. You will feel good when you shoot your long interviews in the pits. And you will curse it when you are shooting your ride alongs, unless you like it so much you will happily suffer for it. Or perhaps you did not have a mind for extreme camera angles in the first place. Aaton is a relatively bulky camera.

The ride alongs sound like so much fun. If you are awake, you may spot some wonderful opportunities to shoot abstract images that really well express some of the physical conditions, and the condition of mind of the drivers. Something like a macro ECU of eye, face, nose, fingers in the foreground with melted, flowing, flickering background passing rappidly by.

A licence to have fun. Dangerous.
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#19 Carl Nenzen Loven

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Posted 20 March 2016 - 01:27 AM

Hi Carl,

 

The following set is for sale::

 

 

1.)  Eclair ACL1,5, Super16 conversion by Les Bosher.

     This is my backup camera besides my ACL 2 Super16, which I will keep.

      It's a light weight set up with small motor 25 f/s, small finder, on bord battery, handle.

      Two 200ft. and one or two 400ft. mags included.

      Interchangeable lens mount, comes with cameflex and Arri standard and bayonet adapter.

      Weight: Body, 200ft mag. motor, finder  3,6 kg only,

      I used it mainly hand held, comfortable on your shoulder.

      Ready to shoot.    Asked price 900 Euro.

      There are more parts available, camera could be upgraded with heavy duty motor 8-75 f/s

      and fully rotatable Angenieux finder.

 

2.)  ACL 2,  R16, latest model, heavy duty motor 8-75 f/s  and fully rotatable Angenieux finder.

      Cameflex and Arri standard and bayonet mount adapter.

      battery, handle, two 200ft. and one or twoo 400ft. mags included.

      Ready to shoot.      Asked price 700 Euro.

 

3.)  Angenieux  Zoom 1,6-2,2 /  9,5-57mm

 

4.)  Canon Zoom T 2,1 / 7-56mm

 

I'm located in Kiel, Germany (ferry port for Göteborg / Sweden).

 

If you are interested, I could email  pics.

 

Cheers,

Volker

volker.bendt@web.de

 

I am interested in both.

you can send photos to carl.oven@gmail.com please.

C


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#20 Carl Nenzen Loven

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Posted 21 March 2016 - 12:40 AM

So, accepting that the thread title may be misleading..an Aaton may be the camera you want anyway.. These thoughts, similar to what is already offered...

An ACL of any sort would be very handy in a tight spot with 200' mags. That would be my choice if I was doing a ride along in a vintage racecar with the camera jamed under my armpit or down in the passenger footwell. You can have a basic video tap for framing which may help.

A Beaulieu R16 is a nice tiny camera which allows more extreme versions of the same thing. But no video tap. Hard to clean the gate on an R16 by the way.

Choosing between ACLs. An old ACL I version that is well maintained is fine with English 400' mags. On proviso that the mags are maintained. Like that, it is a very light, nimble camera. But the original motors were sync speed only. Add the heavier multispeed motor, better view finder, video tap and monitor, ergonomic handle...and the weight goes up.

An ACL with 200' mags is much smaller than an Aaton. It's more like an Aminima. Without the cost and without the A/B wind agony.

As has been said. All ACLs have a camera lens port system that allows almost any lens if you have the right camera mount adapter. And it's all cheap now, used.

Of course, Aaton has better ergonomics on the shoulder. You will feel good when you shoot your long interviews in the pits. And you will curse it when you are shooting your ride alongs, unless you like it so much you will happily suffer for it. Or perhaps you did not have a mind for extreme camera angles in the first place. Aaton is a relatively bulky camera.

The ride alongs sound like so much fun. If you are awake, you may spot some wonderful opportunities to shoot abstract images that really well express some of the physical conditions, and the condition of mind of the drivers. Something like a macro ECU of eye, face, nose, fingers in the foreground with melted, flowing, flickering background passing rappidly by.

A licence to have fun. Dangerous.


A few things. Where does one get 200ft rolls? I can only see daylight spools or 400ft.

For school work we have some amazing PL lenses for our Arri 416, so I think that the Eclair would be a better choice, just for that.

C
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