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URSA Mini 4.6k ProRes


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#1 Jesse Frank

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Posted 19 March 2016 - 08:51 AM

Quick question,

 

Can the URSA Mini shoot at full 4.6k using the ProRes codec?  I'm all for shooting RAW, but I don't have the hardware for it.

 

Thanks


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#2 Brian Drysdale

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Posted 19 March 2016 - 09:23 AM

The URSA Mini records Ultra HD and HD ProRes, It also records CinemaDNG RAW uncompressed and at 3:1 and 4:1, a proxy workflow would seem the sensible workflow with the RAW.


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#3 Noah Yuan-Vogel

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Posted 19 March 2016 - 10:28 AM

My understanding is that the 4.6k can shoot UHD prores downscaled from the full 4.6k sensor.  Keep in mind it's up to 60fps for UHD Prores HQ but the UHD Prores 444 and XQ max is 40fps.  Also the 4.6k RAW 4:1 bitrate is pretty close to UHD Prores HQ so it may not make sense to shoot UHD  at more than Prores HQ anyway.


Edited by Noah Yuan-Vogel, 19 March 2016 - 10:29 AM.

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#4 aapo lettinen

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Posted 19 March 2016 - 12:16 PM

My understanding is that the 4.6k can shoot UHD prores downscaled from the full 4.6k sensor.  Keep in mind it's up to 60fps for UHD Prores HQ but the UHD Prores 444 and XQ max is 40fps.  Also the 4.6k RAW 4:1 bitrate is pretty close to UHD Prores HQ so it may not make sense to shoot UHD  at more than Prores HQ anyway.

 

it is much faster to make offline versions from prores than raw so it may still make sense depending on what you do with the material. it is also easier to edit if you cut directly from the camera files


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#5 Noah Yuan-Vogel

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Posted 19 March 2016 - 02:25 PM

Yes I was going to throw in a qualification about my statement only being about image quality vs file size.  Certainly there are workflow concerns that may trump those.  Then again I'd be skeptical about how much more 444 or XQ really gives you for 4k from a 4.6k bayer source especially considering the framerate limitations, but I'm sure some people will want to use it anyway.


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#6 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 19 March 2016 - 02:47 PM

I should have my hands on one reasonably soon; I shall report back on the available options at that point.


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#7 Macks Fiiod

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Posted 19 March 2016 - 05:51 PM

Anyone catch word on the 4.6k fixing the low light noise issues of the 4k?


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#8 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 19 March 2016 - 06:06 PM

That's sort of the idea.


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#9 Macks Fiiod

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Posted 19 March 2016 - 06:22 PM

 

Oh sorry. I thought people were just assuming it rather than it being a major selling point.


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#10 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 19 March 2016 - 08:11 PM

Well, the improved imaging performance is the key selling point. This includes more dynamic range. The assumption that low-light performance is significantly improved is reasonable.


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#11 Tyler Purcell

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Posted 19 March 2016 - 08:16 PM

Anyone catch word on the 4.6k fixing the low light noise issues of the 4k?


It's suppose to fix everything. Plus with the 4.6k imager, it has better color sampling in 4k RAW then the older imager. They have some great RAW samples on their website you can download and color for yourself. Well worth checking out before contemplating buying. So far, the camera looks fantastic, but it's still not there yet. They had a huge setback when it comes to global shutter recently and it means none of the 4.6k cameras come with it stock. They claim it's related to noise, which makes sense since the 4k version is global shutter and SO DAMN NOISY! This is part of the reason the Alexa doesn't have a global shutter. I'm not sure how good the rolling shutter is on the 4.6k, but they have a hefty processor, so I bet it's not bad.

Blackmagic are very close to making a great camera, the URSA Mini 4.6k will be their first forte. It's got a lot of bugs, like the lack of viewfinder stock, the power button being hidden behind a door, the lack of external VU metering like it's big brother, lack of 120+ FPS capturing in 4k.. etc. However, for the package price of $8500 (camera, viewfinder, shoulder kit, battery system) it's a killer deal. When you think about it's 12 bit RAW capture, it's 12 bit 444 Pro Res capture, it's size, weight, quality and price, there is nothing else like it out there. The 4k Red Raven package is around $9700 and it doesn't capture 12 bit 444 Pro Res, only 10 bit. Plus, it doesn't have the over sized imager which helps create a better colored image. Sony FS7II is a cold looking camera with highlight clipping issues and MPEG only capture for around the same price as the Ursa Mini 4.6k. So until someone else comes out with a camera that's even close to the look and features, I think the Ursa Mini 4.6k is the best package for the time being.
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#12 Satsuki Murashige

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Posted 19 March 2016 - 10:59 PM

However, for the package price of $8500 (camera, viewfinder, shoulder kit, battery system) it's a killer deal. When you think about it's 12 bit RAW capture, it's 12 bit 444 Pro Res capture, it's size, weight, quality and price, there is nothing else like it out there.


On the other hand, the AJA Cion has practically the same specs and is almost unusable without at least a 3 Ton grip truck to go with it. So it's only a killer deal if it works as advertised without additional unforeseen issues. I really would wait to test one in person if possible before buying.
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#13 Jesse Frank

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Posted 19 March 2016 - 11:02 PM

I appreciate all of your valuable feedback.  I've been dreaming about a true "cinema camera" for a long time now, as I've been using DLSRs for three years now.  The Gh4 is my latest one, and I'm in love with it.


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#14 Macks Fiiod

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Posted 19 March 2016 - 11:02 PM

 

 

On the other hand, the AJA Cion has practically the same specs and is almost unusable without at least a 3 Ton grip truck to go with it. So it's only a killer deal if it works as advertised without additional unforeseen issues. I really would wait to test one in person if possible before buying.

Used RED One still seems like the most economic option of all of them.


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#15 Tyler Purcell

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Posted 20 March 2016 - 12:27 AM

On the other hand, the AJA Cion has practically the same specs and is almost unusable without at least a 3 Ton grip truck to go with it. So it's only a killer deal if it works as advertised without additional unforeseen issues. I really would wait to test one in person if possible before buying.


Cion is unfortunately a joke. If they fixed it's issues, then it would be interesting, but it's nowhere near the Ursa Mini 4.6k. I also don't even think about it even existing because it doesn't have a RAW option.
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#16 aapo lettinen

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Posted 20 March 2016 - 04:00 AM

You lose approximately 1 stop of sensitivity with global shutter and therefore also lose about one stop of dynamic range.
The blackmagic 4k imager is ok if you have enough light for it although the color reproduction is not very good, resembling the original red one quit a lot I think
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#17 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 20 March 2016 - 05:05 AM

You lose approximately 1 stop of sensitivity with global shutter and therefore also lose about one stop of dynamic range.

 

Well, I'd happily take that, but apparently not anymore you don't.


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#18 Satsuki Murashige

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Posted 20 March 2016 - 12:47 PM

...but it's nowhere near the Ursa Mini 4.6k.


My point is that you can't actually know this until you've used one. So let's just wait and see, shall we?
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#19 Phil Rhodes

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Posted 20 March 2016 - 01:00 PM

My point is that you can't actually know this until you've used one

 

Much as I agree with the wait-and-see sentiment, I think we can be fairly sure the 4.6 will exceed the Cion. I mean, the 4K exceeds the Cion.

 

I don't view raw as a dealbreaker. 

 

P


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#20 Tyler Purcell

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Posted 20 March 2016 - 05:01 PM

I've worked with the URSA 4k and 4.6k raw files. I've also worked with Red Dragon 4k files as well. So I have some experience with these codec's and cameras. What I've found is the URSA 4.6k is much easier to color and look natural then the RED, which even with heavy filtration, still has a green hue to it. I'm also not adverse to the Blackmagic's yellow/orange look. To me "WARM" is a lot better then "COLD". I guess if you're David Fincher, a naturally cold camera is OK, that's his look anyway. For me however, naturally warm is great because it's so easy to get cold from warm, it's hard to go the other way.

I did download some Pro Res XQ test footage shot with the Cion and to my disappointment, it was horrible. Bright exteriors and the camera had huge highlight clipping issues, even more then Sony's.

In my view, RAW is a big deal because especially with RED and Cinema DNG, you can adjust the compression ratio AND still get a RAW color space image. Cinema DNG @ 4:1 is actually smaller file sizes then Pro Res XQ at similar frame sizes. Plus, some people actually want to record the full bandwidth of the imager, which delivers better dynamic range then ever XQ.
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